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| Posted by Pile on 2005-08-24 00:07:04 | | Welcome aboard! |
Christians killing Christianity for me!
Posted by JustinNawlins on 2005-08-24 08:41:37 | Funny how the original Christian philosphy seems to clash with the current Christian churches' interpretation of Christian teachings. Oscar Wilde was so right when he said "The greatest fomenter of hate is religion."
Yesterday, on (gag) Rush Limbaugh, I heard Rush bashing the phrase, " I hate war but support the soldiers." He, of course, was attacking anti-war protesters while defending Bush and said that this phrase was hypocritical, anti-patriotic and implied we hate the soldiers who are defending the country if we hate war. Yet Rush Limbaugh defends churches that have been saying that "they hate the sin but love the sinner" when referring to gays. I guess its ok to hide your hatred behind such cute phrases. Of course, many gay bashers defend their actions by using these beliefs.
(On a side note: Rush has increasingly been promoting whacko Christian beliefs on his show. From teaching Bush's version of Creationism in schools to Man's "mandate from God" to rule exdusing global warming and mass extinctions, Rush pushes this NEW Christian philosophy.)
Now Pat Robertson is promoting Assassination. GREAT! Nothing like that old time religion.
And, of course, fundamentalist Muslims ARE terrorists. But, FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS are just as dangerous by wanting to change our constitution. Iraquis are fighting over whose version of Religion will be written into their constitution. We are now on the verge of changing our Constitution to enforce certain religious beliefs. Somehow the idea of a Theocracy replacing Democracy seems to appeal to both countries' leaders.
I now consider myself to be a conservative.moderate atheist who has no problem with practicing Christ's reality oriented teachings. It is a shame that modern Christians no longer adhere to that rather than becoming obsessed with mumbo-jumbo crazy thinking. |
| Posted by Monty on 2005-08-24 19:10:07 | I've never heard of a conservative-moderate-atheist. That's a pretty weird combo.
So you have no problem practicing "Christ's reality oriented teachings?" But you're an atheist, so you don't believe in God, so whose teachings are you practicing? And wouldn't you agree that there's very little dogma in the Bible that can't be attributed to other previously-published philosophies? |
religion or slavery?
Posted by karnov on 2005-08-26 08:42:45 | | religion is a mechanism of control. if you can get everyone to be religious then you will-in theory- have all law-abiding good citizens. drones. feel encouraged to think outside the book. you don't have to athiest either because god-like beings do not really exist. people believe what they want. try to believe what is true, i mean really think about it. look around, out in space, at the millions upon millions of solar systems and galaxies and look at the past. no if there were a god this planet would be very different and you know it. no to not belive in something that does not exist is not an athiest it is just plain smart. to those who are wrapped up in a religion- i am sorry but they are the ones who are not living their one and only life to the fullest. i have proof to back it up,and if you think about it real hard you will find out to. c'mon why live by what someone else tells you. be an independent person don't rely on what someone else has set forth for us no matter how old it is. remember the older an idea is the more out-dated it is too. |
Conservative Moderate Atheism
Posted by PatNWaveland on 2005-08-26 13:06:47 | Consider me a FREE THINKER. (http://www.freethoughtradio.com/)
Conservative and Moderate are references to political ideals that influence political decisions. Atheism is refusing to believe in a God or Gods because we see no evidence. Atheism does NOT mean that we do not ascribe to some moral philosophy. Each atheists philosophy is, again, based upon reality not idealism and certainly not by blindly following what someone says is right or wrong from a pulpit. I have no problem with Christ or Moses or Buddha or any of the great moral philosophers. They have so much in common that surely they must be very close to an ultimate universal truth. I just do not accept them or any other prophet/philosopher blindly which I consider DANGEROUS. For example, terrorists are blindly accepting the religious philosophy of Osama bin Laden? Other fanatics are blindly following the teachings of the Reverand Phelps who uses the Bible to justify his own version of gay hating (www.godhatesfags.com)? People accept that Oral Roberts saw an 80 foot Jesus appear at the foot of his bed some years back.
Frankly, any one Religion seems to be good for the comfort of individual men but may ultimately be bad for Humanity. Religions provides comfort to some people so they are willing to fight to defend those beliefs. How many people have died because they would not accept a particular religion? I just find it strange that people are willing to kill and die for what they believe rather than for what they know. |
Agnosticism
Posted by Monty on 2005-08-26 15:41:45 | I'm more comfortable with the concept of Agnosticism, which IMO is a more enlightened stance than Atheism, though I respect the logic in someone's stance that, unless proven otherwise, why assume there is a God?
You have to believe that there is some higher power at work that created all this, but to try to put a name and a face on it, in lieu of any tangible evidence, seems to be the height of ego and avarice (especially on the part of organized religion and religious leaders).
I've always believed that religion served two main purposes: one is control and the other is security. People fall prey to the control because they adopt dogma to quell their insecurity over whether there's a higher meaning or purpose to life and what happens when they die. It seems a lot easier to become comfortable with this as an unknown than it is to build a big house of cards that ultimately never provides the security it promises.
This is why the more devout someone is, the more obvious they manifest a need to convert others to their line of reasoning...precisely because their "faith" isn't really as strong as they claim, and only seems stable when they're surrounded by like-minded people. |
| Posted by wizeGurl on 2005-08-26 16:34:56 | No, actually, I don't have to believe that there is some higher power at work that created all of this. And I don't. That's why I'm an atheist.
But I do agree that the main functions of religion are control (for those in power, or seeking power) and security (for those who subscribe). If you want control, found a religion. It's worked for all kinds of cult leaders. And if you want to feel secure, join up and follow the rules and wait for your reward in heaven. Just don't ask me to do the same, because I don't see that reward coming anytime soon. |
sounds good
Posted by karnov on 2005-08-26 17:38:09 | | i think all of these sound pretty good to me. it's good to finally back-and-forth with some enlightened people. |
re............
Posted by bald eagle on 2005-08-27 16:32:14 | | religion sucks!!!!!!!! |
and current events...
Posted by lep on 2005-09-08 23:12:56 | It's interesting that this comes up again so soon. The mess with the wacko claiming Katrina was punishing New Orleans for gay parades and bared breasts (by the way, I understand the videos are actually pretty boring) is another transparent attempt to use natural events and people's gullibility to grab power.
That is not to say that other people haven't done similar things. I'm always pissed off when someone claims logic or science can absolutely prove that no kind of God or god exists. Atheism itself has become an organized religion in the U.S. Complete belief in Nothing is as reliant on faith as belief in God.
Back to the original point, though, if I believed in the Christian God I would tend to say the country is being punished for re-electing Bush, polluting the Earth, etc., etc. Don't you just love how you can always claim it's the other guys' fault that these things happen? |
The question is does GOD believe in you?
Posted by turk_182 on 2005-09-09 04:32:30 | | Look up at the night sky and think that the light you see, that fleeting twinkle, is thousands of years old. The universe is so vast that it's beyond our feeble attempts to measure it. Just maybe the Big Bang was the act of creation, and I can think of no more intelligent design than evolution, nothing succeeds like successes, you go with what works. Organized religion on the other hand can be very dangerous, they all go along with the "thou shalt not kill" thing but millions of people have killed, or were killed in the name of religion. I don't want to convert anyone, I just hope people discover what brings them peace. |
U just made my point
Posted by angelwings on 2005-09-14 02:27:19 | If there isn't a God how do u explain the way people lived through this storm n New Orleans. God can do more n a few hours than we can in days weeks years.And no one can explain it or stop it.Can any one of u move one star?
All this war and junk n the world is the christains not God.He doesn't want us doing this fighting killing all he ask of us was to believe in him with all ur heart soul and mind and u can b saved. bcuz Jesus died for u thats IT. All the rest of this kos is man made.
And Lep was right to anybody can twist things n their favor.
But,anybody with any common sense,can think of the science of everything and know its all to complicated to just happen by itself and maintain,itself with a bunch of dumb people like us.Who still can't even figure out we were created.And didnt just come from a big bang.
Even if u look at the small picture of 2 people haveing a child what a miracle that is,to come from a speck, to become a living thinking human.
but, if u look at the bigger picture give me a break.How do u not know?
But, u know what Its beyond me why he loves us. |
| Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-09-14 19:31:44 | | The devil is the one who steals,kills and destroys,not God. Read the Bible. |
| Posted by lep on 2005-09-15 01:42:18 | Wow. Again, I'm amazed by what people will decide counts as proof. "We're not powerful enough to control the universe, therefore somebody else must be"? You're welcome to believe what you want, but you're convincing no one else.
Science is not too complicated to happen by itself, any more than any sort of deity. In fact, it's much less complicated on a fundamental level than many religions. That said, trying to compare the two is like trying to compare a fish to a car engine - they have nothing to do with each other, since science doesn't come with a text on how people should live their lives, and religion (usually) doesn't bother explaining things like how computers work.
Presumably, what you meant is that the world itself is too complicated to have come into existence via the Big Bang without guidance. It's an appealing idea, I admit. But then, I also have a habit of thanking the elevators in my office building when they get me to the correct floor in a short time, and trying to persuade my laptop not to crash by patting it reassuringly. Everybody personifies the world, in large and small chunks. In the end, we can only think about the statement you made: that adding God to the mix in the universe somehow simplifies everything.
It doesn't. It changes the questions, of course, but they're still there. You're just not allowed to ask them.
Where did God come from? (If you say He's eternal, and didn't need to come from anything, you've taken the easy way out.)
What is God? (If you give the traditional answer, you're restating the question.)
Then there are the psychological questions. Why did God create the Universe? (Don't try to claim this is in the Bible. I've read Genesis. And if you tell me that He is beyond understanding, then you've told me that you can't answer the question and don't want to.)
These go on for a while. When you're willing to admit that you can't or won't answer them, and that therefore the existence of God simplifies nothing, come back and we'll talk. You're still welcome to believe, but please don't try to claim He makes things less complicated. |
| Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-09-15 13:52:58 | | Everyone has an OPINION and you have stressed yours thouroughly. Apparently,what I meant is what I said........nothing more,nothing less. If you say there is no God.....is there a devil in your OPINION? |
| Posted by lep on 2005-09-20 00:47:47 | Actually, Dibble, I was responding to angelwings, not to you; I'm a little confused as to how my argument could be taken as being against what you said.
I'd be happy to talk to you, too, though. Yes, what I was stating was my opinion. I don't claim to know the truth on this. That said, I don't think many (if any) people do, and I did want to point out that we shouldn't believe in just anybody who claims to have The Answer, even he is charismatic and believes in that Answer himself, and even if he uses a several-millenia-old repected religious text as its justification. You can, at the very least, find out whether the version of Truth offered to you fits with reality and doesn't contradict itself too much.
Is that devilish? I have to say I get leery of people who try to claim that thinking about these things is blasphemy... |
Light and Dark
Posted by Stan A on 2005-09-20 02:55:14 | Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
- Epicurus |
| Posted by Demosthenes on 2005-09-20 23:08:03 | | snooguns |
| Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-09-21 19:35:54 | Hey Lep...I realized that you were responding to angelwings after I posted my comment.OOOPS...my apologies. What you say is not devilish,its your opinion. I chose to believe that we all "make our own beds" or "dig our own ditches" so to speak. I chose to believe in God as my Father and creator as well as the creator of all things.I believe that one must be saved in order to have God work in their life. That is ones own choice. I believe that God loves everyone....even the not saved and he is ever so merciful to all. But...I believe that when one is not a child of his,he cannot protect them when bad comes their way.God is a "free will agent" too...he won't interfere with a mans will.The bible states ( and I do believe in the bible, preferebly the KJV)that the "devil is the one who steals,kills and destroys". God does not create the violent storms, tragedies,
etc. Jesus calmed the storm in the sea of Galalie(sp?)when his deciples thought they were going to sink and drown. Jesus spoke to it and told it to calm down.The bible also says,a man shall have whatsoever he says.That being said,we get what we say is my opinion and thinking about what is true and not true is natural but after one gets saved,God really starts reveiling himself to them...maybe little by little or maybe a lot at a time and one begins to change their habits,way of life and thinking. So many say that they will wait till they change or stop this or that....but we don't wait till we are well to go to the doctor...we go when we are sick...same applies with going to God in my opinion.
As far as the devil,I believe he exists just as well,I believe that he knows the bible as well as anyone does and I believe that he is the greatist deceiver of all time. |
| Posted by Demosthenes on 2005-09-22 01:39:10 | you say hes ever so merciful....and he sends them to hell?
that doesnt seem to merciful |
NOT
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-09-22 02:18:37 | | He doesn't send one to hell,they send themselves.Free will means free choice...eternity with him or satan.It all up to the individual...not God. |
| Posted by Demosthenes on 2005-09-22 21:31:19 | | that still do-esnt answer my question, it still contradicts itself |
??????
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-09-22 22:29:42 | | How does that not answer your question? I guess the contradiction is in the eye of the reader. God is merciful as in if he was the oposite,he would of already smite us all and this whole planet because of the mess we have made of it. Thats how he is merciful....he puts up with our crap and still loves us.He is patiently waiting for people to repent and change. He won't make us...thats our choice. So we choose....heaven or hell...he won't send us...we send ourselves.(as said before) |
| Posted by Anonymous on 2005-09-25 14:37:30 | | religion is GOOD! the DEVIL KILLS! |
religion is f*cked
Posted by lmfa on 2005-09-27 02:58:57 | | this f*cked up who do you know for shore if one of the other major relligions is the correct one alls relligion is for is people who can't except that there going to die some day and that will be it there will be nothing else after that and religion also starts 90% of all wars start all wars f*ckheads. if there is a f*cking god he would be pretty p*ssed at us for started so many wars over him... |
| Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-09-27 13:45:26 | | I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is. |
| Posted by Demosthenes on 2005-09-27 22:14:48 | | Yay for an intelligent christian dibble wurd |
THE DEVIL IS HERE! RUN!
Posted by SN Man on 2005-09-28 15:45:41 | | My father told me, when I was a young lad, that I could worship who I want, when I want, and he wouldn't care. And I have always lived that way. I believe that there is a god, and as long as I am nice to others, my soul will go to Heaven when I die. In other words, I took the easy way out. No long, boring religous traditions for me, biznitch! |
| Posted by a person on 2005-09-28 19:10:25 | Wise men talk because they have something to say, fools talk because they have to say something. "
- Plato |
Faith Goes Both Ways
Posted by Stan A on 2005-10-07 16:10:14 | Dribble says he'd rather believe in God, than to not and die to find out there is. I'm not sure what means except? That if it turns out there is a god you'll be in some sort of trouble? But by that time you'll be dead right?
I submit it takes just as much faith to not believe in god as it does to believe in god. But most of the religious dogma is designed to make people live in fear of what will happen when they die if they don't "follow the rules." So how can you be happy right here and right now, if half of what you're doing is in preparation for the afterlife? It seems that it would be a much bigger waste to find out there is no god, than the other way around... at least then you wouldn't regret spending your whole life pandering to a religious system that was bogus.
If you want to employ faith, you merely believe that if there is a god, he's not going to give you a hard time for not paying much attention to all the doom-and-gloom being spread by any one of the tens of thousands of preachers, each of whom have their own idea on what constitutes devout behavior. |
| Posted by a person on 2005-10-08 02:39:41 | "The gospel is meant to comfort the afflicted
and afflict the comfortable."
Garrison Keillor |
The Bible
Posted by Stan A on 2005-10-10 19:37:38 | I don't understand people and the Bible.
They say it's like a guide book for life.
But then again, when you call attention to inconsistencies and questionable material within, they start dissecting the bible, saying, "Well, that's the OLD testament. The NEW testament is what I really believe in."
Can you imagine if you had a driver's education booklet, where the first half said it was ok to run down people as long as they were different or believed differently? But then the second section said that you have to follow all the rules? Wouldn't you at some point, conclude that this "booklet" is bogus and try to find some other reference that makes more sense? |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-10-11 07:52:25 | Wow, my answer is gonna b long I hope thats ok. First God nor the Bibnle teaches anybody to kill.Wars and killing are all man made.Its for money and power,no big mystery.
Next religion is not control.It is free will.God does not try to get u to do anything.U either believe or u don't. As u should planly see by this board.I belive becuz he saved me.From where I was in my life.And has helped me through so much.He gives me strength to get through things and still be able to smile and feel comforted.I still feel joy inside when all in my life is in shambles.I feel him with me at all times,when I'm depressed and have no one. he is there to pick me up.When i'm sick he heals me.He helps me to have pateints with others who have no understanding of him.He helps me to not get mad when people do something to me.He helps me to give love to others when they need it.And to put others before myself.These r just some of what he does for me.
I may not be able to fix the world, but I can help those around me.And I know its my duty to help them.When I'm with a pateint and they are dying they ask for me to hold there hand and help them feel comfort bcuz they know I love God and he is with them to.
I've never understood why it makes others mad for me to believe in something that can only make me try to be the best I can be.And to try my best to help others.and to love all no matter what they do to me.God has not made me rich,neither did he make his son Jesus rich when he came to die for us. He was poor and walked with the poor and the sick.doing only good and was crucified for it.Thats what my life as a christain will be to.Someday I will have to die for my belief,And I will.
All I'm saying is everybody can gang up on somebody and twist things around and crucified them for anything.Pick any person and we could set here and pick apart what they believe in and tell them how stupid they r for believeing in that.But, what does ur beliefs have u to do.Make things better for the world or do what u want, be selfish and not care about anybody or anything else.
I don't care what any of u believe and woulds not try to push my beliefs on anybody.As I said its free will.But, others seem to get so made when somebody believs in God.I have killed no one,started no wars.But, if u read the bible all the way through u will know all the things men do in his name are for there own gain.
If u want to see a real christain, u will find them helping others and doing work just like any of u.and sometimes for no pay, becuz thats what he ask us to do really.
I guess there r not any believers here but one or two.
oh and by the way I don't know who said u were not supposed to qeastion God,But the Bible clearly states seek and u shall find.
So I know all of u are waiting to tear me to shreds,and twist what I say and try and make me believe otherwise.All I can say is bring it on.
I'll just love u anyway.And pray for u to see the light. |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-10-11 07:56:06 | http://bible.gospelcom.net/ And by the way if anybody really honestly wants to learn,read the bible so u can try and debunk it so u know what ur talking about.And I will help u understand. at this site the are many bibles if u don't Understand one maybe the other will explain.
So bring it on.Whoo I'm excited. |
You Go Girl (?) !
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-10-11 13:40:13 | | I'm right here with you angelwings. I have been reading some of this STUFF and it just hasn't been worth responding to. I read once that: "People don't ask for facts in making up their minds. They would rather have one good, soul-satisfying emotion than a dozen facts." So I believe that some people are untouchable because they won't let go of their own satisfying emotions.But.like you,I will love them anyway. And what gets me, is that most of the scoffers of the bible haven't even read it! Granted,there are a few out there that claim to be christians that have damaged the truth of God and His word. Like what Stan A said...the New Teastament Vs The Old Testament. It is ALL the WORD OF GOD. One can't dismiss a part,any part of the bible. |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-10-11 21:42:59 | Thank You Dibble,Most are just trying to get us to get mad anyway.ANd will try to debunk and defraud and twist things around,to mix us up.But,what they don't know is the bible isn't for them to understand.For the unbelievers will not hear and will not see,bcuz there heart isn't open to learn. They don't really want to know bcuz they might have to change something in there life if its true.And they dont want to do that bcuz, well sin feels good,its fun to them and they don't want to stop.
But, I know that when God touched me and changed my life the feeling I got was better than any sex I ever had. Any drugs I ever did,any drink I ever had.And I liked it all.The differance is now I believe, I know he is with me and its makes me want to be better.He doesn't make me do anything.
The joy he gives me the peace I have inside replaces all that anger and depression I once had.
My life is actually joyful now, my cup runs over with love for everybody and everything.I enjoy life now and I have hope for the first time in years.And we scare people they don't get it.And they won't until they get rid of the the anger and really want to know more.Now I don't need drugs to make me happy,or to drink to get through depression.And sex well don't have to give that up cuz i'm married.I'm truly happy. I must say these do not sound like happy people.
Our job is to help them and be there for them when they do. |
Lies
Posted by Stan A on 2005-10-11 22:09:57 | Oh give me a break.. first you say
"God nor the Bible teaches anybody to kill"
That's bull. God himself kills millions of people as documented in the bible. He also orders many of his followers to kill in his name. That sure seems like "teaching" to me, if not downright authorizing and demanding that people kill.
Then you say:
"God does not try to get u to do anything."
More BS. The whole notion of using eternal damnation in hell seems like coercion to get people to worship him and follow his rules. The whole goddam notion of sin is designed around trying to control people by establishing rules (hello? Ten Commandments?) and then outlining various punishment if you break the rules. What part of this do you not understand?
" I've never understood why it makes others mad for me to believe in something that can only make me try to be the best I can be."
Nobody's mad at you. There may be some people who think you're foolish and gullible. As long as you don't go telling other people they're going to burn in hell if they don't pray to kermit the frog or whatever you belive in, I doubt anybody will care one way or another.
You know, if you're a good person and you live your life well, that's wonderful. But don't say it has anything to do with god and the Bible. There are many ideals in the bible that are reprehensible. If you're a good person, that's because you're a good person and have chosen to live your life benevolently, and that's great. If you want to say it has something to do with "god" that's your prerogative, but you could say the same thing about the easter bunny or tooth fairy, and at least they aren't borne of doctrine and history that involves lots of murder. |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-10-12 00:06:19 | The Bible tells us not to judge.I'm sorry that there are people out there who do.But, just bcuz christains make mistakes to is no reason to condemn them.They can be wrong to.
Things we do makes all who believe in God look bad.Bcuz the eyes of the world are on us.We are suppose to be examples of his love. And I'm very sorry we all fail.We don't have all the answers.But,neither do u.
Haven't ask u to believe anything,Just giving my opion just like the rest.
And I'm not worried about going to hell and don't have to.Thats not why I do what I do,its becuz I believe what i'm saying.I do the right thing bcuz its right.I do it bcuz I want to be what I was meant to be.God made me to serve him.And I do it bcuz its what I want to do.
U do what right for other reasons thats great.The differance is I will get rewarded for what I do and u won't.U'll get ur reward here on earth.I'll get mine after I die.That shouldn't bother anybody else.
Have u ever noticed that with all the religions out there the only one people get upset about is the one where we believe in Jesus Christ.
Why are people not upset about cults where they rape and molest children in Gods name.And where the beat kids and starve them.
My religion tells us to obey the laws,and be good to others,and love each other. and not to judge.If we fail its our failure.Not the Bible or God.
There are good and bad people in everything every race,every religion,every army.There are just good and bad,in every person and I choose to try to do more good now than bad.I'm sure u are good people to.We just believe differantly.I'm just saying don't judge us all bcuz of what some do.Some of us really do try to do whats right. |
| Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-10-12 00:38:47 | "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."
(2 Timothy 3:12)
No one is mad at what u believe StanA.You say as long as you live your life good and your a good person everything will be ok...right? I have my belief and you have yours. So....do you believe in a heaven and hell? And you say there is no God...right? Well here is one question...Why do you use his name in your conversations? As in your previous comment,you used his name in vain.
I'm not the sin patrol or judger...I just state what I believe and I believe in God...my creator. I believe in the word of God..the Gospel...the bible.
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Rom 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good,and simple concerning evil.
Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
In simple terms:
One final word of counsel, friends. Keep a sharp eye out for those who take bits and pieces of the teaching that you learned and then use them to make trouble. Give these people a wide berth.
They have no intention of living for our Master Christ. They're only in this for what they can get out of it, and aren't above using pious sweet talk to dupe unsuspecting innocents.
And so while there has never been any question about your honesty in these matters--I couldn't be more proud of you!--I want you also to be smart, making sure every "good" thing is the real thing. Don't be gullible in regard to smooth-talking evil. Stay alert like this,and before you know it the God of peace will come down on Satan with both feet, stomping him into the dirt. Enjoy the best of Jesus! |
Reasons
Posted by lep on 2005-10-12 00:49:45 | Angelwings, there's a very simple reason why people pick out Christianity to talk about in the U.S., both on the pro- and anti-religion sides: Christianity is a major force here. Any of us who grew up non-Christian found that our beliefs, whether in some other religion or no religion in particular, made us stand out in extremely uncomfortable ways. Have you ever, just once, refused to say a prayer in a public gathering of people who assume everybody's Christian? (The answer is pretty obviously no, but perhaps you should try it some time. The glances you get from people can be murderous, and it's amazing how many will decide that they don't want anything to do with you.)
And, of course, that's a mild case. It's far worse when someone decides lack of faith is grounds for physical pain. Of course, this usually happens because the person doing the beating is a bully, but you'd be surprised how much credibility they gain in others' eyes when they bully in the name of the Lord.
Christian teachings say that judging others or causing pain for lack of belief is wrong. That does not keep Christians from doing these things. It doesn't keep people of other faiths from doing them either, but as I said before Christianity is the dominant religious force in America (and, for that matter, in Europe). Christians routinely use faith to persecute non-Christians in this country, and unless you can figure out a way to keep this from happening there will always be people who went through Hell as kids, and don't need any preacher to tell them what torment and damnation are like. |
Also...
Posted by lep on 2005-10-12 01:13:05 | One more thing.
There are those who use Christianity to justify evil acts. Persecution, murder, and war are routinely carried out while invoking Jesus's name.
Do you, as a Christian, stand up and say, "No, this is wrong. This is not what Christ taught"? Do you allow yourself to be blinded by the name of your deity into accepting what is done? Or do you simply stand aside, closing your eyes to the evil that is committed in the name of your God?
If you follow the second path, you have helped to turn Christianity into a tool of evil.
If you follow the third, you have stood by and allowed your faith to be coopted; you have let your beliefs go to rot.
However, if you truly carry through with that first path, objecting when evil is done in the name of your God, you have my sincerest respect. |
Why believe in Christianity?
Posted by Stan A on 2005-10-12 04:03:39 | People say there are a lot of "false prophets" who use the bible and christianity to justify their deluded visions of evil.
The REALITY is that there has been more murder in the name of "god" on the face of this planet than all other events combined.
How do you reconcile that?
You know, Hitler really did a lot of good for Germany. He got the economy moving and created Volkswagon and did a lot of good things. Oh yea, he also killed several million Jews. But the doctrine upon which he based is motives was noble on its base level. So why aren't we all Nazis?
There are more people exploiting the bible for selfish and evil purposes than there are for doing good. Why follow the bible? You might as well be a Nazi if you're going to look at a minority example of good and use that to rally behind a movement.
If you need a device to justify your delusion of belief in god, then go for it, but you might want to pick a publication that isn't completely riddled with hypocrisy and has for thousands of years, been used as a device for evil and oppression. |
Rule #1
Posted by lep on 2005-10-12 04:17:57 | Rule #1 in online debate:
There will be an inevitable Hitler reference. Whoever mentions him first, loses.
Please don't bring him into this. |
| Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-10-12 13:19:47 | | So Stan....do you believe in a heaven and hell? Or a supreme authority? Or even the devil? |
Heaven & Hell
Posted by Stan A on 2005-10-12 17:02:18 | No. I don't believe in heaven and hell. These are constructs created by man to scare people into conforming to select agendas that have little to do with universal good will.
As for a supreme being, I don't know. I'm comfortable with that. I believe in the golden rule. Anything else IMO is superfluous. If there is a heaven and a hell, and it's reserved for people who lived their lives in a peaceful, benevolent manner, I know I will go there. However, if heaven is only reserved for sheep who agree to pay homage to an egomaniac who claims to be omnipotent but apparently has a sadistic desire to watch his creation suffer and toil, then I have no problems being denied entrance to that place, which would be hell to me. |
| Posted by Stan A on 2005-10-12 17:11:07 | The bottom line is that you monotheists, who believe there is only one true god, are minorities on this planet. For every group that believes Jesus, Allah or the Flying Sphaghetti Monster is the one true Lord, there are more people who disagree. And each sect has a completely different set of rules to get into "heaven."
You people rationalize that there is one god in many forms and all that BS. But you practice your particular flavor and believe in its rules and perpetrate this notion that your god is the only god and everyone else is going to burn in hell. It's really sad and pathetic.
The bottom line is if there actually is a god. He's either closer to my ideal, and isn't interested in all the goofy dogma, or he's a selfish, egotistical, sadistic monster that is sitting around watching a world divided by philosophies relating to him slowly kill itself off in His name. Now there's a god worth worshipping.. if you're into pure evil. The Christian god is a farce, as is all other organized religions. But I understand weak-minded people have a need to believe in fairy tales because it addresses their very fragile sense of self-worth and purpose in life. But just because you need to cling to little imaginary dingleberries-of-hope to give your shallow life a false sense of security, you shouldn't assume everyone else does. |
Bowling Team vs Church
Posted by Stan A on 2005-10-12 17:18:25 | Hey, I'm on a bowling team. We meet once a week in our "church." We have our rules and regulations; we sometimes wear funny outfits; we do charity work; we counsel each other. We put questionable foodstuffs in our mouths. We have a sense of community and promote good will and friendly competition. Kinda like a church, except we don't tell the other team they're going to burn in hell if they don't join our team.
I can't see any advantage a church has over a bowling team. You get all the community benefits, without all the doom-and-gloom. They should put bowling alleys in all the cathedrals and use the collection plate for deposits for shoe rentals and the world would be a better place. Nobody's going to kill someone else because their bowling ball is a different brand. |
| Posted by Logrus Mage on 2005-10-12 17:57:56 | I agree with Stan A. The stupidity of religions ignorance outweighs the benefits of its community.
On a side note, I'll follow the Churches own rule, hate the sin not the sinner.
I hate the church and religion in general, not the idiots whoi believe it. |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-10-13 01:24:15 | Stan A,the golden rule is Luke 6:13 so u do believe in some of the bible and go by some of the rules.I'm happy to here that.And I'm not going to say u have a fragile since of self worth for that.Or even call say u need a false sense of security.lol
We all live by rules and believe it or not most of u live by Gods rules anyway u just don't give him credit for anything or believe in him.But,he is still with u anyway.And still helps u all the time.And yes Lep I do speak up against those who go against Gods word they turn more people from God than they will ever bring to him.Because of the things they do.But if u know the bible u know God does not tell them to do those things.They do them for power.God tell us to turn the other cheek.And to love our neighbors as ourselves.And when somebody ask u for something give it to them.
He doesn't tell us to ask for money doesn't tell us to make peole sell bibles or blessings or little flowers.lol
He tells us to give all we have,and not ask for anything back to live as Christ did helping others.Thats what we are supposed to do.Did U hear of Christ killing anybody? NO,did he sell anything no, he healed the sick he gave his all.Thats a real chriatain.Do I fail badly fron that absolutey.Do I have all the answers nope.But do U.Nope.
I'm just trying to tell u I care about u.All of u.lol And if thats makes u mad I'm sorry.But, the things is I can still pray for u and there is nothing u can do about it.Cuz I know ur all good people.And I know why ur upset bcuz so am I.U think it doesn't make me mad to get lumped in with those people who give others a hard time and make them hate me when I haven't done anything.
U think I like being treated like filth of the earth bcuz I love my Lord.BUt the truth is if I loose my voice my heart will still sing his praises.Bcuz he is with me and gives me something I know u just don't understand.Happiness,true joy. |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-10-13 02:44:27 | Oh and one more thing Lep,If ur a christain and u pray in a crowd of unbelievers, u get the same thing as u get if ur and unbeliever in the middle of so called christains, if they were christains they would not have acted as they did.
What I'm saying is there are bad people in religion the same as there are bad people who are unbelievers.There is good and bad everywhere why does that seem to surprise all of u and why do u judge all by some.Not all christains are like the ones u speak of.Although we all my mispeak sometimes and make mistakes and be wrong just as u can.But,we try.And I try to go back and say i'm wrong and fix it when I've done something wrong.
Sorry for some of the mispelled words just put on new nails.lol |
Golden Rule
Posted by Stan A on 2005-10-13 06:46:52 | You guys think the Christians invented the golden rule? You think that this didn't occur to anyone else in the thousands of years of civilization prior to the bible being written?
See: http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html
You obviously don't know the bible if you don't think christ killed innocent people.
See:
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm |
| Posted by Stan A on 2005-10-13 06:48:56 | | Let me say something. I don't have a problem with people believing whatever they want to believe, but if you're going to preach about your imaginary superhero, I'm going to argue over it. Nothing personal. |
| Posted by lep on 2005-10-13 06:58:55 | I'm not surprised by it, angelwings. If you remember, I grew up with it; it's hard to be surprised by something like that.
The point I was trying to make, in both of the things that I said, is that there are many Christians in this country who, by simply being silent when other Christians use Christianity as a weapon against non-Christians, are themselves used.
The general threat goes like this: There are many more Christians than there are people of other faiths. If non-Christians object to how they're treated, they can always be treated worse. I can't imagine a religious civil war breaking out in the U.S., but it's obvious that if it ever did there would only be Christians left.
Christian values are always used to decide things - usually, not really a bad thing, since the general tenets are reasonable, but there are the unfortunate times when some religious-minded people decide that Christianity should mix with politics.
Because, of course, "If you don't believe that all abortions are Satanic (even the ones that are medically necessary, without which the mother would die, along with the baby), you must be Godless. And, you see, good Christians make up the majority of the country, so if you don't like it, you can leave, or I can beat you until you do. Get out of our country, Godless Communist bastards."
And while most of you probably don't agree with those statements, you don't object when they're made. You allow yourself to be used in this threat, as part of that "silent majority" (to use a political term), and as such you and your faith become tainted.
I know it's not your fault that these people exist, but keeping yourself from being used in this way is the responsibility of the people on top. If you don't agree, or aren't sure what I mean, let's have an example.
Let's say you're 7 feet tall, 300 pounds of muscle, and a guy you met five minutes ago in a bar starts telling other people you'll punch them if they don't give him money. Do you
a) Stand there threateningly, and growl at people who don't give him money
b) Stand there awkwardly, not really responding at all
c) Say, "I'm not punching anybody."
The problem with answering b) is that, for anybody who's only 5'10" and 180 pounds, even that can easily look pretty threatening. If you do a) or b), you're allowing yourself to be used to rob people.
Christianity is a pretty simple extension of that. Christians - real Christians, who believe doing good is more important than making people fear them - truly need to do a better job of saying, "Yes, we may be powerful, but we don't agree with everything that's being attributed to us. Wackos who blow up abortion clinics are not acceptable, and we're not going to force people to pray to our God." |
Bravo!
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-10-13 14:15:09 | | Lep.... I will be the first "christian " here to say that "yes,we may be powerful,but we don't agree with everything thats being attributed to us. Wackos that blow up abortion clinics are NOT acceptable.And we are not going to force anyone to pray to our God. I believe that I can speak for everyone in my church home when I say those words. BTW, I am non-denominational and we believe in the whole word of God. |
Also,
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-10-13 14:22:42 | | Everyone is welcome at our church. EVERYONE. We don't care what you are wearing.How strung out you may or may not be.Our church has just as many whites as we do blacks I LOVE IT! It's the real thing to me. I was saved at the age of 21 and spent a lot of time AFTERWORDS running from God because of the so called chridtians that I felt were fake and hipocrits. I roamed from church to church and then quit all together. Then when I was 42,I found my church home. Glory to God! |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-10-13 21:59:34 | Stan can't imagine why I would want to read evil bible.com And yes I know where the golden rule came from.
And yes Lep if some one told others I was going to hit somebody to get there money I would speak up and say NO I'm not going to hit anybody!Why would I stand there and do anything else?
Surely u guys have better questions than these.
And bcuz I think its wrong to kill babies I'm a bad person? U have to do better than that.
Yes,I think its a better idea to teach kids about waiting on sex teaching about sex causes babies,and sometimes aids,and others stds.And if u get pregnant u can have it and adopt it out or get married and take care of it.BUt, if they are determined to have sex, give them condoms,and birth control.But, if they don't use them make them be adults,and make adult discisions,if they are gonna play adult games.
I think thats a much better idea than telling them sex is ok, then they get pregnant have abortions and do it all over again no conaquinces.
They just kill the babies,with no remorse.MOst of these people use abortion as there birth control.Have you people ever seen a partal birth abortion?There is nothing more heartbreaking.They stick a long object into the babies brain and kill it before its borne.So don't tell me how human abortion is. |
| Posted by Logrus Mage on 2005-10-13 22:50:59 | "They just kill the babies,with no remorse.MOst of these people use abortion as there birth control.Have you people ever seen a partal birth abortion?There is nothing more heartbreaking.They stick a long object into the babies brain and kill it before its borne.So don't tell me how human abortion is."
We don't argue that abortion is "right". WE argue that it should be the mother/parents right to CHOOSE. And saying "MOst of these people use abortion as there birth control." is ridiculus. Who are "these people"? People who get abortions?
Non-christians?
Just becuase Christians may not like whats being attributed to them, its being attributted to Christianity, which may not support the guy with the bomb on his chest, but certainly supports that abortion is an absolute evil. The Church may not agree with everything they do, but they do it anyways. Every religion becomes corrupt at some point.
If you have a small-community religion, Great. You have a club that believes in God. Its the Church that had the problem. The OVERALL church. The individual communities who don't mingle with actuall politics are fine. Its the ridiculus ones that ask for "intelligent design" to be taught in schools. The ones that protest Sex Ed, because they say that abstinence isn't the only answer. Those are the people I have a problem with. The Reactionary religous morons. I don't have a problem with religion, just with what religion creates.
Jesus preached peace. And was nailed to some wood for it.
More people have died in the name of Jesus than any other man who has ever lived, including Hitler. |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-10-13 23:16:23 | So r u saying we should not try peace any longer bcuz of the people who killed christ.People who didn't believe in him,and thought he was a fairytail.Yes and the people like me will someday have to die for our faith to.becuz of people like u guys who are building up hate for christains.And there will be christains killed for christ sake.The Bible tells us that. But, if we believe in him until the end, we will be saved.
But, this is the choice we make.Bcuz we want to have our reward on the other side of this life.
I don't have a problem with any of u being mad with the things christains do either.Because they do so many things that go against everything God teaches us.Look at the catholic preists its sickening.But, don't judge us all by that.we are not all child molestors.Not all of us are gay bashers.or hate mongers.I may not agree with the life style of some other people but it is not my place to judge them.Its my place to plant a seed to help them if I can,but in a helpful way not a judgemental way.And in a loveing way.As they may not agree with my life style either.
We are here to learn to help each other and to learn to get along.And we are all failing so badly. |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-10-13 23:23:55 | | One more thing, I also dont agree that it should ever just be the parents right to choose weather or not to kill a child because the sad truth is alot of parents in the world today will choose to kill the babies or even older kids if they could because they just don't want to have to care for them.Look how many kids are killed from abuse these days.I'm sure if those parents had a right to chose they would just kill the kids to.and not have to go to jail because they beat them to death. |
The bottom line....
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-10-14 00:00:30 | | ....is,this is a never ending subject.There are so many denominations,beliefs and such that this debate will go on and on. |
| Posted by Logrus Mage on 2005-10-14 03:48:08 | Atonement will never be found in a house of worship.
It is not only Christians that I disagree with. Please to not pin me as a Christian hater. I was just pointing out the hippocracy of it all. The only religion I favor at all is Buddhism. And even then, i don't believe the storys, I just enjoy the sensible principals.
The truth is, no can ever be right. There have been religions that have lasted longer than Christianity has. Because they died out, are they wrong? It makes no sense. If their is truly and "after life", a "good place" and a "bad place", the it will be determined by actions, and never by faith. |
Belief
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-10-14 14:08:02 | | If there is no belief in the bible then why are all the prophesies coming true about the end times? (if there needs to be a more thourough explination,I can supply the facts according to the word) Come on now,cant we all see the truth? And why are scientists today stateing that there is now proof of the credibility of the word of God? Why have they actuallly found pieces of the ark...Noah's ark? |
Also,
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-10-14 14:11:46 | | Doctors from all over the world are also seeing the power of prayer for healing..we see it all the time on the television. There are people out there with terminal illness's that disapear when they pray with belief for their healing.Does that not tell us something? |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-10-14 19:37:19 | Maybe they don't know what the future is gonna be like.
Maybe we should enlighten them.There are going to be more storms, floods, earthquakes,and deseases we can't get rid of.Watch for Russia to go to war against Isreal,and all countries will go against Isreal.This will be armagedon.There will be an antichrist arise who even u guys will think is God.And he will have all of u take a mark of the beast,on ur hand or ur forehead.And u will turn in all who call theirselves christains to be killed.and we will be beheaded if we don't take the mark.
So here are some things for u to watch for don't take my word for it.Just watch.And when u see these things u will know. |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-10-14 19:59:28 | http://www.shareintl.org/ And here is the first antichrist.don't know if the is the one the bible speaks of yet.
But how did the Bible know this many years later he was comeing? And how does the Bible seem to know all these other things this many years in advance. |
| Posted by J.Fontana on 2005-10-14 23:47:43 | | my experience with religion,,, nice to your for a while, depending how you dress, where you live, how many children and above all, how much do you give ie, tithing and beyond. If you do not give $ they want every week you start to evaporate as in the invisible man, (family).....the hooplah jumpin around the aisles, adn great sermons mean nothing for the rest of the week...where is the true agape love treating others with respect and encouragement, true caring for one another without being a member of the club criteria referenced above??? I am not against God, I believe in prayer and the power of prayer andmiracles. I just do not have faith in what is called church today. It is very difficult to find a group that is ultimately not out for your cash, home, family members. |
| Posted by lep on 2005-10-15 03:03:30 | Angelwings:
You missed my point completely. In fact, you then went on to prove it. Carefully look over my last post; you'll see I was making a comparison. Do you object when somebody does something evil in the name of Christ? Do you even notice when people do evil things in His name? I promise you, it happens regularly.
Also, before you tell other people how sinful they are, try cleaning up your own house... abortions are more common in the Bible Belt than in the Northeast. Personally, I'd bet it's because they have less sex ed, and the traditional method of dealing with unmarried pregnancy - the shotgun wedding - has gone out of style...
DibbleDabble:
I hate to burst your bubble, but the studies you're talking about don't account for what's called the placebo effect. The idea is that, by becoming convinced they're doing something to make themselves better, people actually start feeling better (and truly recovering from illness). It's very well-documented, and is probably largely responsible for the success of a lot of phony dietary supplements and such. So, even without any sort of divine intervention, as long as they believe prayer might help, it could. In reality, it's not going to be possible to account for this unless you can get some people to pray to a God that you know won't answer them, and compare results. I suppose you could use Scientologists... :) |
| Posted by lep on 2005-10-15 03:14:13 | | Oh, and before you say it: yes, the placebo effect can even help to cure diagnosed terminal cases. It's entirely possible to so thoroughly convince yourself that you're about to die that your body goes ahead and does the work for you. The opposite way is harder, but does happen on occasion. |
Faith
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-10-15 03:52:31 | Lep...It's called faith. Thats why people are getting healed.Call it whatever you want. Read Hebrews 11:1. Faith is not what we see,feel or touch,it's what we believe.
On another note, once again,there are many out there that damage christianity in the name of God but the bible speaks about them too--Eph.5:5&6 tells us that. I imagine that even Angelwings and I could have some debate on our beliefs but we both know and love God as our savior. We both believe that he died on the cross for us and we are both saved. I apologize for the negative that most of you on here have for the sake of God but there is a root of the problem somewhere. I don't think any different of you though. I love you all just the same and can only pray for you and be an example for you. People may doubt what you say but will always believe what you do.
As far as what J.FONTANA said, when I first started going to church,i had the perception of $$ was all they wanted. Then I learned what tithing and giving is all about. And yes,I do tithe and give.(Our church only "passes" the plate on Sunday morning...no other time.)And by my obediance,My God supplies all of my needs according to his riches and glory. And boy ,do I have some testimony that I could share with you all about being supplie...WOW! |
| Posted by lep on 2005-10-16 03:14:37 | I have no problem with the faith you have. We all have faith in things, even if only the simple idea that the sun will rise tomorrow.
The problem was with the implication that the studies were somehow evidence for the existence of God. Bad science is one of my pet peeves, and in spite of the fact that I'm sure the people doing the studied tried hard to make them good science, they weren't. So, trying to use them as proof just doesn't work. |
What's wrong with Christianity (part 1 of many)
Posted by Stan A on 2005-10-29 11:26:03 | For starters just look at the basics: This religion teaches that from the moment you are born you are cursed to burn in hell.
Because of this so-called transgression from Eve in the Garden of Eden (in the old testament, an area where most christians start claiming isn't as relevant as the NT when critics show how sadistic god is), NOBODY is innocent no matter how good they are. This goes against the whole notion of being moral and good... if from the moment you're born, you're already doomed that's a really sad affair. What kind of "loving god" would lay down such a dictate? It is insulting to all of humanity and an embarassment to the whole notion of religion that christianity instantly comdemns its citizens from birth UNLESS they engage in some goofy recognition that jesus is the son of christ and ask to be forgiven.
Why should an innocent baby, who has never done anything to anybody, be condemned to eternal hellfire? Why would a god, who is supposedly all-knowing and all-seeing, who created adam and eve and put them in the garden of eden, taunt them with the apple and the serpent in the first place unless he was a sadistic sad manifestation that got his jollies tormenting innocent people for his own amusement. NONE of it makes any sense.
What god is worth worshipping when 30% of his most important commandments deal with pandering to his own ego? He must be recognized as the only god? You must keep the sabbath holy as a homage to his creation? That sounds like the babbling notions of a lunatic human. What omnipotent creature would really give a shit about such fragile, human-centric insecurities?
According to the bible and christian doctrine, you can be the most loving, considerate, moral person on earth, but if you work on a sunday or don't ask god for forgiveness for the stupid game he played on adam and eve, you get to burn in hell for all eternity. And people wonder why all these serial killers and crazy people claim to be christian? I think it is obvious. From the moment they're indoctrinated into the church they're taught that they are useless sinners who can only seek redemption by following some stupid dogma over something that supposedly happened 6000 years ago. None of it makes sense to any person who isn't partially lobotomized or brainwashed. |
Let me correct you Stan
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-11-02 08:57:41 | | One is NOT cursed and doomed for hell the moment they are born. Infants,toddlers,small children and even adolescents belong to God.They would go to be with him if they were to die. All are born as Gods children until the age of accountability. And no, there is no certain age....it is when one knows and realizes the difference between right and wrong. Thats why it is so important to at least introduce all children to God so they will know that they have a choice. Thats what Gods word means when it says to choose the blessing or curse. WE HOLD THE KEY TO OUR OWN FUTURE...heaven or hell. |
Have you even read the bible?
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-11-02 09:06:37 | | Stan A, no offense,but you really need to read before you speak...I don't have time to go into all of it...(got to go to work) BUT You are a bit off on what you state the bible says. For one thing, the "sabbath" means: Seventh. The seventh day. That could be any day of the week! If you staert on a Monday....the the sabbath AKA seventh would be Monday. So if one needs to work on Sunday then so be it. What God is saying is to make that day Holy and yes, if one can, he is to rest on that day but God would most certainly not domm you or curse uoi because you worked. |
In the interests of practising what I preach...
Posted by lep on 2005-11-02 22:39:16 | | Stan, could you tone it down? I realize you're angry that people believe something that doesn't make sense to you. (It doesn't make sense to me, either, but then neither does the rest of the world.) If you want to argue against Christian teachings, at least learn about them more thoroughly first. Were you ever a Christian? |
I've read the bible
Posted by Stan A on 2005-11-02 23:45:39 | Just because you claim something different doesn't mean it's true and my claim is false. Don't make me start quoting the bible. I probably know it ten times better than you christian apologists.
The bottom line is that more than half the ten commandments don't even make sense. And most Christians don't follow any of them, and supposedly, you can sin as much as you want as long as you ask for forgiveness before you croak. Where's the incentive to really lead a moral life? None of it makes sense. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel. If you need to believe in some imaginary figment that scares you into behaving like a decent human being, that's your perrogative, but I think it's sad. You can be a great, loving, kind, moral person and not believe in any stupid, man-invented myth.
The problem with christians and "faith" is that they all are in constant denial of the truth of what they believe, because the bible is so overflowing with immorality and contradictions, and every day you hear of religious leaders acting more immoral than average people (this site tends to call attention to that stuff too), that you have to reaffirm that your beliefs are true in the face of overwhelming reality that doesn't jive.
It's a lot easier to just be agnostic, and say, "I don't know" than it is to start becoming a consumer sheep to any one of the tens of thousands of different religious groups, all of whom seem to think they've cornered the market on truth. Common sense says they don't have a clue. |
| Posted by lep on 2005-11-03 00:14:05 | Of course some religious leaders act immorally - a religious following is power, and power does strange (if rather predictable) things to people. Of course it's stupid to say that you don't have to live a good life as long as you believe and ask forgiveness.
But if you're going to try to tell me that there's some way of even coming close to explaining morality or people's actions that doesn't contradict itself, I'll know you're either a liar or supremely gullible.
Do you give up on morality, then? I don't. If other people want to believe in the Bible, fine. If they want to believe in The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief, fine. We're not going to convince them that they're wrong in any useful way by standing on a pulpit and loudly proclaiming that their teachings are self-contradictory.
You're pissed off that kids are being taught that what they do doesn't matter as long as they believe. Well, that doesn't describe all Christians by any stretch, and there are people like that of all religious stripes... nihilists come to mind. The way I figure it, as long as they teach their kids to be good, who are we to complain? |
| Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-11-03 14:29:04 | | Stan, What christian doctrine are you talking about? (from your "part 1 of many" post) |
Sex, Politics and Religion
Posted by Logrus Mage on 2005-11-04 13:02:03 | The three things you never discuss in public... this is why.
All you people saying christians make no sense.... urrg.
All you christians saying you do make sense.... double urrg.
The point is religion, OR lack of it should NOT dictate actual law. At all. Or government. At all. Period. End of story.
It really, 100% doesn't matter whoese right. Because by the time we find out, were dead. If theirs a hell, and I'm going there for being a good person who eat pork and didn't listen to jesus.... crap. If i'm gonna rot in the ground and cease to exist.... crap again. If I go to heaven.... everyones completly wrong about faith.... and I won't care. In this life, trying to convince people to turn away from their religion is like telling an idiot to NOT push the big red button (NOT calling religous people idiots, its just a metaphor).
Same with trying to convince stubborn atheists theirs proof of God. Because... there isn't any. And theire isn't any proof there isn't a God. I mean, all this scince shit is so amazing, it looks like one hell of a miracle to me!
Everytime people talk about sex, religion, or politics its always gonna scale into arguement, becuase no one is truly right. Its ALL opinion. Well..... most of the time anyways. Whats truly "right" (in the moral sense of the word) is completly in the head of whoevers speaking.
Goodnight and goodluck.(Damn I loved that movie!) |
Yes, it is personal
Posted by Stan A on 2005-11-04 13:25:22 | I agree that this may be one of those subjects that is better not publicly discussed.
However, it's the xtians who, not unlike homosexuals, take their personal social agenda public and try to make everyone forcibly accept it as something they can't avoid. But it is personal and I don't see why someone's personal beliefs needs to be waved around like the flag. And now we have a crazy fundamentalist nut in the white house who has intermixed public policy with certain types of religion, which is inappropriate, so now it has been drawn into the public window, which is unfortunate, but this prompts people like me to stand up and say "Hey! Not everyone believes in your jesus fairy tale so stop trying to act like you own the place!"
It's unfortunate that this stuff is now a big public debate. But the right wing christians have gotten so bold they're prompting the otherwise private, what-i-believe-is-my-business majority to feel compelled to speak out and counter the unanswered debate over whether "gods law" should mix with "americas law". I do not think it should but a small group of nutty right wingers do and they seem to have a disproportionate amount of influence relative to their actual demographic representation.
It would be one thing if the religious people welcomed honest debate, but they don't. They constantly harp about liberal media and their solution is to shut that media down, or force it to the right. Rational people, who believe that religion shouldn't be a part of public policy have fewer and fewer places to have their voice heard, and it is unfair and dangerous.
So unfortunately, i think it is time for more non-myth-believers or people who don't take the fundy stuff seriously, to stand up and speak out because we're getting railroaded by a bunch of power-crazy wackos that want to bring about armagedden. |
Dribble
Posted by Stan A on 2005-11-04 13:37:29 | I'm talking generally about most christian doctrine. It is very telling that there are more than 1200 sects of the christian church alone. Even these goofballs can't agree on things and they've split into a thousand factions over stupid issues.
I used to be religious but I came to my senses. I went though several different conversions when I was younger, but the details of that are irrelevant. I wasn't much different than most people. I just may have been a little more educated and more skeptical and it led me to the obvious conclusion that with so many different groups, each thinking their way is the "only way", obviously they all are wrong.
We live in a wonderfully complex, amazing world, but it is also simple in many ways, and religious people like to create additional complexity and confusion where there shouldn't be any, and I reject the game playing. If there is a god out there, I honestly believe he has absolutely nothing to do with what most organized religions are spouting, and absolutely nothing to do with the bible or any of the other so called god-inspired texts. All that stuff was written by man, and we cannot even agree on what happened a week ago, much less several thousand years. To subscribe to this nonsense as if it is even a tiny bit accurate is completely irrational and foolish. But I recognize some people need some kind of magic to believe in. That's fine as long as their goofy beliefs do not affect me, and that's the problem. The fundys are trying to impose their morality upon everyone else.
As for morality, if you think that you need god to be moral, you're just stupid. The existence or non-existence of god ultimately has no bearing on whether or not people understand and pursue moral behavior. Morality is based on the concept of avoiding pain. You don't need to believe in god to avoid hurting yourself and recognizing that hurting others will bring you pain as well. It is yet another irrational, ironic shade of arrogance that xtians think they invented morality. Man has a natual desire to seek out comfort and avoid pain and this is the basis of morality. Almost all life forms on this planet act according to this behavior. Yes, some kill other animals, but it's either for protection or to survive. That's basically the same thing the church mandates and animals were around long before the church (according to anyone who isn't an idiot) so the church has nothing to do with morality. With or without religion, there will still be morality, and there will always be some who are immoral, but life takes care of them regardless of whether or not there is any god watching over. So religion ultimately doesn't do anything productive except as a vehicle for socializing, which is cool, but keep that crap to yourself is what I ask. |
Stan
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-11-04 20:28:17 | BTW, It's Dibble. I'm sure you knew that already but felt the need to call me by another name.
Gee, I could of swore that this was an open forum.You seem to be telling any of us that are speaking beliefs that don't harmonize with yours to shut up and keep our opinions, ("crap") to ourselves. And your comment,... ("Hey! Not everyone believes in your jesus fairy tale so stop trying to act like you own the place!")...is ever so demanding to say the least. All I have to say is that your words are NOT the law so quit speaking as though they are. I only share what I believe...I don't TELL people to shut up with their crap or try to shove it forcefully down their throat and most certainly do not act as I own anything. Why don't you just calm down a bit? |
I agree
Posted by Logrus Mage on 2005-11-06 14:43:33 | This is an open forum. Everyone has a right to their beliefes. Talking about said beliefs in a public forum setting is hardly shoving down our throats (I spell that right?).
Lets get this straight. America is a mainly Christian country. Were never gonna see completely secular law. It will always be slightly influenced (not saying I like it that way, not saying I dislike it that way) by Christian doctrine (don't kill, don't steal, get sunday off work ect...).
Its when religion influences law to the point that its seriousely effecting the freedom of the people to choose any non-damaging life style they want, that religion must be stopped.
I'm most certainly not one of the Jews (yes I am a secular Jew (anti-zionist btw)) who stands there in the town of 99% christians saying "You get a giant Christmas Tree, maybe there should be a manorah?" No. Wrong. America is Christian. I can live with that. Just let the gays be, and the rape victims abort. O, and let us have stem cell research. Thats a biggie.
And as for Christians screaming "librel media"... Its not christians. It neo-conservatives, who happen to be christian. Don't generalize a religion like that. I am strongly for seperation of church and state, but I know the limit. "God Bless America" is gonna be our song for a long, long time. And "under god" ain't comming out of the pledge anytime soon.
If we attack those petty things, how are we agnostics, seculars, and atheists any better than the Christians against gay marriage?
As to all these comments about believers of a faith being stupid, or idiots, thats unwanted, unwarrented and just plain wrong flaming. I know plenty of religous Christians who believe totally in both Creationism and Evolution. They believe in the Bible and in science. Their are also many Christians who don't throw any kind of religous spin on anything, but still stay faithful to Christ (or however i'm supposed to word that).
One more thing, how old do you guys think I am? Just curious to see how my writing compares to an age (younger people tend to be librel, older conservative and the such, not true in many cases, but i'm interested). |
Age????
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-11-06 22:15:27 | I figure you to be in your 50's. Just by reading your other posts....and....Your "Goodnight and Good Luck" refrence. Not many younger folks would be intrested in that flick. You gonna tell us now?
Take care all....I'll be out a bit. On my way to Georgia. My brother in law passed away. |
Dibble
Posted by Stan A on 2005-11-07 11:55:02 | | Sorry.. I read your name wrong. Dribble wasn't meant as any sort of put-down. |
| Posted by Stan A on 2005-11-07 12:06:20 | Some good points made by Logrus.
Yes, I agree it is the "neo-conservatives" who are creating the problems, and it's not directly the conservatives, however, the conservatives are voting for, apologizing for, and supporting these neo-cons, and they're so self-centered that the only way to get them to wake up is to blame them for this mess, and indirectly they are responsible. Though I think it's directly. How can such a tiny group of ideologues have so much power? Because they've figured out a way to manipulate the christians. This is another testamonial to how foolish the christians are. They can let their entire sense of rationality be undermined on the basis of a simple issue like abortion or guys kissing.
btw, America was not founded as a christian nation:
The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1, Clause 8). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so?
In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington's presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams. |
That, we can certainly agree on.
Posted by lep on 2005-11-07 21:10:48 | Thanks, Logrus.
Stan and I may have some other disagreements but I do want to say very clearly one thing:
To people who say that they don't want to force others into Christianity (I hear it every day), but still want to create laws making Christian doctrine (and not even necessarily universally agreed-upon Christian doctrine) the law of the land, consider this. Would it be right for the government of India (with a large, prominent Hindu population) to outlaw the sale of beef? The cow is a sacred animal to Hindus, and eating beef is very seriously against Hindu teachings. If Hindus make up the majority of the population, then surely it can't be wrong to outlaw beef. After all, it's just acknowledging the fact that a large number of Indians believe the killing of cows is wrong, and that they want to make sure it's not done. They're not impinging on anybody else's rights; they just want to make their country's laws reflect their personal values.
Would that be okay? What would the appropriate penalty be for killing a cow? Eating beef? What if your children were starving, and you could find no other food?
This is a nasty road to head down. Everybody (or almost everybody) can agree to laws against murder, rape, and theft (though even with those you get into arguments about how the crimes should be dealt with). For the most part, those are pretty obviously harmful to societies themselves. When you get to finer points of religious law, though, it begins to have less and less to do with what is good for society, and more to do with what is good for the "soul." Or bad for it, in most cases. Governments are not capable and never have been capable of doing anything about souls. Trying to get them to do something about souls is a recipe for disaster, and one of the fastest ways to get national self-destruction.
Stan had a good point with his last post, related somewhat to what I was trying to say earlier, though he put it in more inflammatory language than I would have liked. Neo-cons have taken power by taking advantage of many religious Americans' belief that, if someone proclaims his love for Jesus and his willingness to put his religious views first in his political decisions, he must be a good person. This needs to stop, for three reasons that I think even devout Christians would agree with. First, devoted worship does not make someone a good leader. Second, they may not make the best judges of character (which is very important, if you're putting many people in positions of power). Third, it's quite easy to lie about faith.
(Incidentally, I'm 24, and was quite interested in Good Night and Good Luck. It was an excellent movie.) |
| Posted by lep on 2005-11-07 21:13:42 | | There are, of course, other reasons why faith shouldn't be the primary consideration for public office, but at the moment I'd settle for people just acknowledging those. |
Views of the world
Posted by Nemo on 2005-11-09 08:57:18 | Hi folks,
I have been reading what everyone has been saying with interest. I am not from the USA nor am I living in the USA but I thought to add my "two cents" worth anyway. What I have found is that, if you take a point, any point and argue it, people can and will come up with arguments & counter-arguments. I am personally fundamentally against anything that purports to be for the common good but that enforces a view point that extolls the virtue of a system of beliefs to the exclusion and sometimes the detriment of another set of beliefs. In effect setting up a moral high-ground upon which to look down upon others. I can see this effect, perhaps unintentionally, in the preceeding posts. Where you have one group claiming authority, you have another group extemporising against the former stance. This is as equally valid in past and present war zones such as Northern Ireland and Iraq as it is in forums which discuss religion or indeed any other emotive topic. Ultimately any decision on the validity of the pro and contra agruments is, ironically enough, a question of free choice. But like any good choice there is no right or wrong but a decision based on factual empirical data, personal knowledge and personal belief. This is true of any good decision, whether it is to go to the cinema, go on a diet or follow the beliefs of a given religion. Ultimately we all use varying degrees of the above, with religion and science seemingly polorised, one firmly on the empirical side and the other on the personal belief side. The reality is, nearly always, not at extremes but somewhere in the middle.
Time and again, history has taught us that where one system of belief rises to the fore and eclipses others then bad things happen.
Religion touches on personal belief but also to an extent, on empirical data. Most people agree that Christianity, as the name implies, started with Christ. After that, well things get very muddied. People in this forum have used the bible as a book of truth but that in itself is a belief based on the assumption that God guided the people that originaly wrote or compiled the disparate parts that now make todays bible. The book itself having a number of current versions - which one is the right one depends on your belief system. Go further back in history and you have the original book, much different than the one we know today, written in Greek, translated into latin, re-translated into Greek, translated into any number of different languages afterwards, including the English versions of today. If that is not enough to change certain words/phrases, consider that over the course of history whole chapters have been taken out to suit the political/religious beliefs of the time. I trust that those of opposing views can at least see the validity of my agrument?
A religion that is only 4000 yrs old, can it be relied on, why if it is true, does it use so much pagan dates/customs? Why, if it is the only way, does it have the same roots as Islam and Judaism? Of course there are, as stated arguments, to be gotten for and against religion in the above. On the surface the above is an argument against christianity, for the christian it is a question of belief but belief with knowledge. Neither argument is of and in itself definitive, in that ultimately it is a personal decision.
I am not a Christian, though am aware and respect what good it has done in the world and am aware what evil is perpetrated in its name, as I am familar with buddhism, Islam, etc. and the respective good and evils that has been done in their names too.
My personal belief is that when it is necessary to introduce a spokes-person for a higher authority, then there is the very real possibility for evil. If such a being exists, then it/he/she is already within me and I have no need of an interpreter.
If there is no such being, then I live as I would like others to live as I am a social animal and follow instinctive rules to allow my society to function with me as a part of it to the betterment of that sociey and perhaps religion is an externalisation of that desire. An externalisation that I have no need of as I am my own God in a Universe of Gods. |
Heh, I sound old......
Posted by Logrus Mage on 2005-11-10 16:52:54 | Its true that America was not founded a religous, or christian for that matter, nation. And it is wrong to appease the religous masses and deny us seculars. But theres no convincing the neo-cons of that.
I wish whole-heartedly for a completly secular America. Secular nations often have lower murder and teen preg rates. Holding a religion over a country isn't ever a good idea. But we "crazly hippy librels" have to face the facts. Were not gettind a secular nation anytime soon (not that all librels are for non-religion...). We need to find a way to appeal to the Christians and other religous citizens by appealing to the less radical ones.
The Christians who like morals, but don't care if we have "under God" in the pledge or not (not an important issue, I just needed an insignificant point). Thats the audience we need to appeal to. Show them that were not religion hating basterds trying to suck the moral life out of America. We want to help all peoples. In fact, if Jesus were alive today, I have very little doubt he'd be a democrat (or librel independent). Christianity was built around the poor. The poor Romans converted because Jesus promised them infinite happiness after death. The Christian faith is all about giving to the poor, loving your neighbor and the such. Thats the part of the Christian religion we need to appeal to. Those morals. Help the sick, feed the hungry, give moeny to the poor, jobs to the jobless, homes to the homeless. Its these things that must be our front running issues when speaking about "morals".
O, and by the way, I loved "Goodnight and Goodluck". And your guess is way off. Apparently I sound old.... teehee. I'm 15 years old, and a sophmore in highschool. I found this site during my study hall actually, thats where i've been posting everything :). |
Blame the Baby Boomers
Posted by Stan A on 2005-11-11 13:59:29 | I contend the reason the country is going to hell in a handbasket fast is because the baby boombers (the demographic group born up until the mid-late sixties) are seeing their bubble burst. This entire segment of society is going through a mid-life crises that's the result of their dream of money equating to happiness completely backfiring on them. Now they're desperately grasping at straws to blame anything and anyone else for the failure of their own personal goals. They've been married and divorced, neglected their children, have their 2 cars and their vacation homes and they're still miserable, addicted Bad TV, stupid sports, to Soma and Vicodin, Alcohol or Nicotine, and nothing seems to work anymore. They're fast running out of distractions.
That's when god comes in. He has this exciting plan whereby he'll wipe out the entire planet, except for YOU. Hey, you've tried everything else. You might as well believe that. It's the last thing to cling to before you're forced to examine your own pathetic life-choices and take some personal responsibility. You don't want to do that, so Hail Jeezus! |
Yes. I really am. BONG!
Posted by SN Man on 2005-11-14 11:23:23 | | Hmm... I'm concerned. This is my concerned face. People spend their lives being nice and kind and all that crap, believing they will be let into heaven. If someone is let into heaven, do they have to leave it that way? Heaven should be like Valhalla. After a life of goody-twoshoery, I would want to get into heaven and live an afterlife of partying, drinking, and fighting. But, hey, I'm an idiot. |
Why Not?
Posted by Stan A on 2005-11-14 14:01:44 | Nobody knows what heaven is like obviously. The christians like to daydream about it, but what does that accomplish? That's like being married and spending all your time hoping that some supermodel will one day have sex with you. The more these people daydream about the afterlife, the more they subconsciously convince themselves that their present life is "second rate" and not something to cherish. And we wonder why most serial killers, psychos and sexual predators come from religious backgrounds? That should be obvious. They all expect to be forgiven for their behavior in this life, and be led into the "VIP room" in the next, just for saying "I'm sorry jesus." How bogus. Religion doesn't really provide much incentive to act like a decent person when at any time, you can be forgiven for your sins if you suddenly decide to have a moment of humility.
Meanwhile, the rest of us, LIVING IN THE REAL WORLD, have to put up with the terminally confused, insecure, control freak christians, who constantly wrestle with themselves over the illogic and inconsistency of their beliefs and try to shove it down our throats so they can feel better about their frail, fleeting faith. What did I do to deserve this? If you people want to live in your own little christian world, then stop trying to force feed the fairy tales to us. We don't want it. We can peacefully coexist with you sheep if you just don't advertise your personal, perverse pathology, not unlike two guys french-kissing in the supermarket. There is no place for that kind of stuff in a public setting.
And you christians.. you can't take care of your own nutballs. So as far as I'm concerned, you're all nutty. For every dozen moderate, so-called christians, there's at least one weirdo christian who believes in evolution and a literal bible. But do you challenge these weirdos who are part of your club? No. So even though the majority of your typical christians are probably more rational people, you refuse to distance yourself from the totally screwed-up contingent of extremist, terrorist, hard core right wing fundamentalist among you. As far as I'm concerned, this is like the jews in germany during WWII who partnered with the Nazi in order to move a few steps forward, while the germans were planning on moving them all a thousand steps back. The christians are only hurting themselves. That's fine, but I just wish their politics and their religion would be private. |
Hi Guys
Posted by angelwings on 2005-11-14 21:42:41 | Been away I while I c not much has changed.Just wanted to say this.All this crap u guys r talking is wrong and even most christains don't get this but I will try n make it simple.Its says n the bible all u must do is believe with all ur heart and all ur soul n all ur mind,in Jesus chrcist to b saved.The Bible is just guide lines for christains,to try to live up to.None of us can but we r supposed to try to.Thats why there is forgiveness.Bcus we all r going to do wrong.
I saw the comments on Bush, He talks out boths sides of his mouth n can't be trusted.Just my opinion.I try n fail all the time. doesnt mean I'm not a christain just that I fail.Just like everybody else.Our only purpose here is to pray and try and want more from him.Ask for what we want,learn more,want more.N if we mess up say hey forgive me.And its never to late to say help me Lord no matter what is wrong n ur life.
I am not gonna try n prove it to u let him do it. Give it a go n c what happens.what have u got to lose.Dispair,hate,sickness,depression,hopelessness.When u do these 3 things pray,Thank him for what he has already done for u,and learn,more,the more u read the more ur hunger will grow.
And then that when all the things u ask for will b urs.
I am not rich,riches is not what I ask for I ask for knowlegde,and inner happiness n peace.Now I pray for mine blessings to touch somebody else u may laugh.But, somebody out there will change there life becus of this post.
Thank you. |
Angelwings v. Stan A.
Posted by Nemo on 2005-11-15 01:49:16 | Folks, folks,
Did you know that there was a period in history when not only did christianity and islam live side by side but actually flourished?
As I said before, you have a situation where one person is saying "I know, you don't" and the other person is, quite predictably, reacting against this, dare I say, "holier than thou" attitude. We all have our belief systems, religious or otherwise - the reason the two faiths lived in co-existence for so long is because they both respected each others belief system and did not try to convert each other. That changed to bloody war and hatred when the respect ended and the attempts at conversion began. (Yes, I know it was more complicated than that and involved the christian church wanting land, gold, new converts, to kill off anything that did not agree with their belief system, did I say gold? - but let it suffice for now)....
A thing that is totally missing in the above comments is "peaceful co-existence". We are all on our own path, the only person that can walk it is you and you cannot walk it in company - stop trying to convert people to your belief system, whether it be christian, agnostic, pagan, spaghetti monster or plain old atheist.
Think on this, if both of you represented countries, what do you think would happen? Think about the logical conclusion to both your arguments above? What ever you think would happen, I am sure you both agree that the potential for it being a friendly relationship is fairly slim. Now think on this - it is actually happening now as you read this - change your attitudes before it is too late and learn to live with each other. |
| Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-11-15 08:53:56 | | What I see here is most definately persecution. As 2Timothy 3:12 says-Yea,All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. Those few on here that are christians are being persecuted. Hmmm.....The truth in Gods word is being seen. Here are a few things we or God or the bible are being called . :Stupid,wacko's,bogus,foolish,gullible, Power carzy,f*cked up, riddle with hipocracy, BS,nutballs, daydreamers, selfish,egomaniac, sadistic, etc. You don't see us doing this...we just speak out of love and our knowledge. There are apparently a few of you that are filled with hate for some reason. I just pray that my God will send someone across your path's to administer to you and to open your eyes to see that what you see as "christian" is not the truth. I am ever so sorry that some :christians " do actually believe that they are holier than others but believe me,they will pay on judgement day as will all of us for our wrong. |
Dibble signals the end times
Posted by Stan A on 2005-11-15 09:57:56 | Let's look at what Dibble wrote:
2Timothy 3:12
"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."
So being persecuted is the mark of being a good Christian? This some how validates your delusion?
The problem is, like most "godly people" in this circumstance, you throw yourself into the fray willingly and try to sacrifice yourself as the underdog, being persecuted in a forum like this. It's not sincere. This isn't persecution. It's a sad commentary on how strong christians think they are that they consider someone criticizing their faith (and not themselves personally) to be a form of "persecution". Pardon me if I find that amusing, if not kind of sad. Don't talk about "persecution" unless you're really going to be persecuted. Go over to Saudi Arabia or China and start spouting bible quotes... then maybe you can have a taste of what real persecution is. In the meantime, your whining, with all due respect, is unconvincing.
Second, this passage in 2Timothy is prefaced by, "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come." So this is a prediction of the "end times". Are you saying that Jesus is coming soon? The problem with this is that the christians have been saying this for two-thousand-freakin-years. The whole notion of the second coming is bogus. Read the bible. There are passages where god says certain people who died more than a thousand years ago, would be alive to see jesus' return. Tons of bibilical prophecy has turned out to be bogus.
Finally, your little bible passage provides a perfect opportunity to show why the bible is a total load of lard.
Proverbs 16:7
"When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him."
So which is it? It is 2Tim or Proverbs? Both are supposedly the word of god, but one says good christians will be persecuted and the other says good christians will be at peace with their enemies. You can't have it both ways. This is a classic example of the bible continuously contradicting itself. You can give me virtually any quote from the bible and I can show you another quote that makes it look silly and foolish.
And yet you people still believe this stuff is sacred and makes any sense? A Dr. Seuss book would be more rational. |
by the way
Posted by Stan A on 2005-11-15 12:05:18 | Dibble, you seem like a nice person. I don't have anything against you personally. I'm sure if we met in person, we'd get along fine (unless you started to preach to me about how I was going to burn i hell or something). I respect that you believe something differently. I may not respect what you believe, but I respect you for having whatever convictions you choose to have. I don't think it's appropriate to consider a christian to be "persecuted" if someone pokes fun at what they believe. That's not really persecution.
You hope that your god grants me the light to see the way you do? Well, likewise, I hope that perhaps you gain some enlightenment as well, and further study the basis of your beliefs and the hypocrisy of your religious leaders, and like myself, come to the conclusion that you are the one who is being misled, and that christ is a fairy tale that is made up by a corrupt institution that exploits peoples' insecurities to gain power.
You trust the bible, but if you read the bible, it continuously contradicts itself. If you examine the history of the bible and its development, you know that the bible's books were hand written by man (it doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that man makes mistakes) and the books that were chosen to be cannonized by the church were among many, and it was man who choose what books to be in the bible, so it's an incomplete record, hand-selected by an organization that was actively involved in killing others who disagreed with their beliefs.
Just because several million people believe something doesn't make it true. Historically, vast majorities of the population believed in different gods, multiple gods, that the earth was flat and that it was the center of the universe. You would likely recognize that these were false beliefs, and in time, people will probably come to that same conclusion about christianity.
I don't consider myself to be a super genius, but I don't think I need to be to have some doubt in christianity. One look at the ten commandments is enough to make any rational person wonder about the legitimacy of this so-called "god", who equates murder with being jealous of a neighbor's goat, or is so insecure himself that he demands that he be recognized as the only true god. I just think if there was an omnipotent creator, he wouldn't be so preoccupied with vanity and ego, and if he is, he's not the kind of god I'd respect, much less worship. What I see in the christian dogma, is man's insecurities personified in an imaginary tale of a supernatural entity, that has been blown out of preportion and turned into an institution. The fact that so many people feel a need to believe this isn't a testimony to the truth of religion, but an obvious, observable psychological effect that's the result of a network of institutions (churches) who profit from propagating this myth as a solution in dealing with human frailties. I think it's more comforting to recognize this and move forward merely trying to be a good person by existing social standards, than it is to forever be trying to convince oneself there's an imaginary entity hovering over us who will give us all-you-can-eat lobster or enternal suffering and hellfire depending upon whether we keep the sabbath holy. That's a lot to have to continually prop up; a heavy burden, that is avoidable if you apply common sense, examine the history of what you believe and open your eyes.
Understand something. I don't have a need to deny god's existence. I'd love to know god, if one exists. Maybe one does; maybe one doesn't. But one thing I'm pretty confident of is that the christian god doesn't make sense when you look at him. He doesn't seem to really be moral. The only way you can paint the christian god as moral according to any realistic definition of morality, is to re-interpret and/or discount half of what he is attributed to saying. That is ludicrous. You could do the same thing with Hitler. If you ignored half of what he did and said, only paid attention to the other, good half, you could characterize him as someone who just wanted to help and protect his people. But obviously doing so is inappropriate, so why employ the same exegesis to the bible? It just does not make sense.
The reality is that all of mankind essentially wants the same thing: we want to live in peace and be comfortable. Some of us feel that it's better to recognize that we don't know what happens when we die, than have to forever prop up a shaky story about magical creatures that dangle rewards and punishment depending upon how we follow some rules that don't seem to make sense. |
And Once again....
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-11-15 14:36:59 | | Those of us who call ourselves christians don't come on this forum "persecuting" with words the way that you do. Maybe you are the one living the fairy tale....ever thought of that? No offense but everything you say, I can turn around and say right back except on your level of belief. I choose to believe in God and his word. |
| Posted by Stan A on 2005-11-15 15:04:31 | First, look up "persecution" before you start misuing the term Dibble:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution
The Jews were persecuted by the Nazis. To compare your treatment on this forum to them is just despicable.
Second, you think I live in a fairy tale? Well in my world, I can touch, see and prove things that exist. Maybe you need to look up the definition of fairy tale as well? Do you understand the difference between fantasy (NOT REAL) and reality (REAL)? Are you on some kind of medication?
You cannot refute what I say. There is no equality in our respective arguments. Your beliefs are irrational. My beliefs are rational. I am not saying, "There is no god" because I could no more prove god didn't exist than you can prove he does. However, I can certainly provide tons of evidence (which I have, which you ignore) to show that the christian dogma is hypocritical, inconsistent, irrational, immoral and downright goofy. You cannot refute these claims, and rightly so, you haven't, beyond the superficial, "You're wrong because I say so" evasive excuse.
I have no problem with you believing in god or anything else. I do have a problem with you telling me your god, Harold, Yawhey, Jeebus, Spongebob or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, is the only god and must be worshipped or else I'll burn in hell. Can you understand the distinction?
The problem here is that you quote the bible to me to promote your case. Even assuming the bible is worth quoting as any source of reliable information (which is dubious at best) I can give that to you, and then dig another quote from the bible that directly refutes your previous quote. And what is your response? To ignore it. Don't you see this makes you look like you have absolutely no case whatsoever? Your own bible is so full of flaws you claim you're being persecuted when someone points that out. That is sad. It's YOUR bible dude. If you believe in this stuff, answer for it, admit it's bogus, or admit that you have a completely irrational belief in some fantasy that does-not-make-sense.
Admit it. You picked door number three. Let's tell Dibble what he's won....
Don Pardo: Dibble, you've won a year's supply of rice-a-roni, the San Francisco treat... and this will go great with your lifetime of mental anguish stemming from the need to continually reinforce a beleif system that defies logic, observation and common sense! Back to you Bob! |
| Posted by Pile on 2005-11-15 15:08:15 | Hello People.
What is the chance you can tone down the ad hominem stuff to a degree? Everyone is welcome here. I encourage you all to debate but try to be nice. |
| Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-11-15 18:39:11 | Thanks Pile. I think I really made Stan mad.I also see constantant baiting for arguments coming from him.
*************************************************
Stan,I never said there was only one God...there are many Gods. Before you stomp me into the dirt,PLEASE make sure you know what I said or didn't say. I believe I will step out of this conversation for the mere reason,it's not a debate anymore...its Stans word is LAW and anyone elses beliefs are...well...read for yourselves. This fish is swimming to another part of the lake for now. The bait here is bad. Toodles. GOD BLESS YOU ALL! |
Stan
Posted by angelwings on 2005-11-15 18:42:05 | We have tried to b respectful about our beliefs. And if there is anybody here who wants this word they they may take it freely.
I know I have said nothing derogatory about any of u or tried to force anything on u.I have stated my beliefs,that why this forum is here.Its u who have the anger against us.About persecution,n forceing our beliefs on u.Or Lord says we have to live as he did.That what we r to do.not force anything but tell people who want it.If we don't we don't get the blessings meant for us.And persecution and abuse comes n many forms.Words r what cause the very wars u talk about.And people die and even kill themselves bcus of people who abuse with words.I don't care what u believe. I want u to pick Jesus,but if u don't its ur discision n I won't force anything.But don't try n stop me from saveing those who want it.And need it,ever what ur beliefs r.Let them choose for themselves.Let them read the facts for them selves n hear the dicussions.Make up there own minds.Without ur persecution.What r u so afraid of.Its been proven behind all anger is fear of something so what is ur anger,n where is it comeing from.I won't force my beliefs don't try n force urs either ok.
The Golden rule covers most of my beliefs,that n i believe n Jesus.And thats something most people believe n already n try n live by.And I don't c why people make it all sound so complicated. I believe n getting along wth the world how does anybody get anything differant from what I have said.
I do belive that there r times u have to kill to save ur family, to save innocent people who r being persecuted.Those r a couple examples.
I have no problems with anybody haveing there own beliefs but that said,I want to know more about theirs and they can learn of mine Let them make their discision.Knowledge is power.Even n Gods eyes.
But the Bible will b uncomprehendable until u try reading it with and open mind, n open heart.Its made for Christains, guides to live by.It even says he who has eyes let them c n ears let them hear. That isn't going to happen with ur attitude.U will never understand it bcus u don't want it,n thats ok.But u cant stop me for praying for u anyway,to pray for u to soften ur heart and open ur eyes n b more compassionate.And there r people teaching n others countries.But, nowhere is it needed anymore that n America right now.And this forum proves it.God Bless u All |
Amen to that
Posted by Nemo on 2005-11-17 06:51:53 | What we have here is totally different world views so I think it was a good idea to stop.
For the record Stan A, I didn't think your last posting was over the top and, from reading what you have posted, your world views, certainly as regards christianity, are quite similar to mine.
It is clear that the "holier than thou" attitude is pi@@ing you off and I have to admit I find it galling. Particularly when it is used in such a smug self righteous way.
For those of you who think I am having a go at their beliefs, I am not. I am merely pointing out that this is how your message is being delivered to those of us who do not have your "mindset". To say to someone who does not believe in your version of God that you will "pray for them" is at best a symptom of that smugness I mentioned and at worst a sign of extreme insult and total lack of respect for the person you are directing your comments to.
So in the spirit of communication & co-operation here is part of my belief system :
As already said, anyone who questions, with an open mind, the belief system of christianity cannot help but come across huge glaring holes in logical reasoning, proof, etc. Any one who further studies the catholic church, again with an open mind, cannot help but come across evidence of a society whose primary concern appears to be self preservation. Exploring the motives of which leads you to the almost inevitable conclusion that what we have is a club whose agenda is power, staying in power and holding onto that power no matter what. They, the church started with nothing, (depending on your belief - this is true, other's believe, not without evidence, that they started with a lie), they then grew in power - mainly political power, attached to almost all of the royal families in Europe - and now thay are losing that power base. The only thing thay have left are the people who believe their lies that started out with the biggest lie of all. The person the Greeks called Jesus Christ, whose real name was Joshua (a westernised form of Yeshua/Yahshua) never stated that he was the son of God, confined his "kingdom" to the teresstrial one and, although religious, he was interested, like many people in his day, in getting the Romans out of his homeland. Although Yeshua appears to have been one of the leaders in a quasi-religious/political group, this group later splintered into two. The early church was effectively made up of this splinter group, led by Paul, who chose to give their leader Yeshua a divine aspect to further their goals. Yeshua's brother, James (hebrew form : Ya'aqov or Jacob), known in the bible as "James the Just", and who is mentioned in the bible as being the brother of Jesus (Matthew 12:46-50) was, as his brother before him, a leader in the original group. The Pauline splinter group made Yeshua a God while the other, know being led by James carried on with the original criteria. Despite initially giving way to James and indeed consulting him, the church of Paul, later to become known as the Church of Rome eventually became the dominant one. As we all know the axiom "The winner gets to write the history", so it was with the early Roman Church - they effectively wrote James out of history.
So there you have some of it in very broad outline. Those of you who choose to believe in the original lie perpetuated by the Roman Church may see this as persecution, that is your perogative but please do not insult me by saying you will pray for me. I, in turn will not insult you by saying that the above is the absolute truth, it is an opinion or belief based on knowledge gained from study. After all, to me belief without questioning is perhaps the biggest sin of all. |
| Posted by Stan A on 2005-11-17 11:35:46 | Point taken Pile. And I apologize if there were any personal attacks in any of my statements, but at the same time, I take offense to any characterization that me, expressing my opinion of religion, is any form of persecution or attack upon anyone else. If you're offended that I think what you believe is fantasy, I'm sorry, but that's how I feel. I'm not offended that you don't believe in what I believe. I may feel sorry for you, but you christians obviously feel sorry for me too, and instead of engaging in a debate on the points I raise, you merely respond with stuff like, "I will pray for you", which I find provacative and distracting, if not somewhat insulting.
However, this thread wouldn't be that interesting if we didn't have contrary points of view, and I don't want to scare anyone off. I do admit I'm as passionate about my beliefs as many others, and I think I've explained why I'm so passionate in previous posts. My daily life is affected other people pushing their religious beliefs upon me and I do not think that's appropriate. I cannot even get a beer on Sunday. This is just depressing. |
Slightly different topic...
Posted by lep on 2005-11-17 21:15:14 | On a slightly different note, I've been increasingly noticing something recently. When it comes to valuing life, these are what the American society seems to have to say, in order of decreasing importance.
1. American Christian children
2. American non-Christian children
3. American Christian adults
4. Foreign Christian children
5. American non-Christian adults
6. Foreign Christian adults
7. Foreign non-Christian children
8. Foreign non-Christian adults
When it's not mentioned, Americans are usually assumed to be Christian for placement on the chart, unless they look foreign. Europeans are as well, but anybody else is assumed to be non-Christian unless they prove otherwise.
Notice a trend? (If you disagree, watch the news at some point. If a plane crashes in Asia, a single American on board will make the difference between a page 34 note in the New York Times and a headline on the evening news. If a few British troops die in Iraq, it might get mentioned in a news show's daily war coverage, but Iraqis getting blown up is mentioned only if it's part of a coalition operation or a massive attack. And nobody cared about religious persecution in China until it came out that one of the persecuted religions was Christianity.)
American news leaks out. Lots of people in foreign countries watch it. What do you think this makes us look like? |
On that different topic
Posted by Nemo on 2005-11-18 03:28:41 | Lep, Though I have never attributed it to the christian religion, you are not alone in America - I live in Europe and it is exactly the same. News headlines regarding Iraq tend to be how many coalition troops were killed/injured and Iraqis are only mentioned if they are attacked by terrorists, as in car bomb kills 15, etc. or indeed, if they kill coalition troops.
Strangley enough all is silent if the coalition forces kill Iraqis, unless it leaks that phospherous was used, there was a wedding, etc., etc. This is something that a number of people have spoken about/written letters to newspapers, etc. and it has improved slightly but it is still very much one sided reporting.
I guess it also has to do with the fact that the military do not want the total civilian death totals to leak out. It kind of defeats the purpose of trying to save a country if you are killing hundreds/thousands/tens of thousands of its civilians. Brings to mind the old quote, "To save the village, it was necessary to destroy it", which is attributed to an American soldier in Vietnam in the 60's..... |
| Posted by Stan A on 2005-11-18 11:33:36 | I don't know if that's a religious issue. I think it's a nationality one, or more accurately a sociological/economical issue. The closer the person's demographic is to the target one of the show's advertisers, the more likely it is to get covered in the news.
Remember the girl who disappeared in Aruba? I have to assume her parents were rich and powerful and had a lot of influence. Her being white was definitely a big plus, but white christian girls disappear all the time. There was another factor: money. |
| Posted by lep on 2005-11-18 12:48:58 | | I agree, nationalism is important, but religion is important in this. As I mentioned, nobody cared about religious persecution in China (with the exception of a few "Free Tibet" bumper stickers) until Christians in China started letting it be known that they were among the persecuted. If it was found that non-American Hindus were killing off rich non-American Buddhists, would we know about it? I doubt it very much. |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-11-21 12:55:56 | I apoligize if anyone took offence to my saying I would pray for them I did not mean anything by it nor did I mean u to think,I thought myself better n anyway.never crossed my mind.Just thought I would pray for all to have peace of mind cuz thats what I do.So I'm sorry.Can I say I hope u find what ur looking for without u feeling I did something wrong.
I know christains give people a bad name.Sinners give people a bad name to.Do all of u rape? no Do all of u kill? no Do all of u torture and maim? no.
Not all people who believe n God r bad people.Just as not everybody who doesn't believe n God r not bad people.Thats all I'm trying to say.
What I c happening within the churches makes me sick its why I didnt go for so long.And please believe me when I say I know i'm not worthy.I'm not better than anybody.I didnt come to this forum to force my opinions but to learn urs.And to share mine.I came to learn.As well as help others if I could.But only if they want it.
But, if we don't discuss beliefs how will we ever come together,and learn to live together.
Why does there ever have to be so much anger? We all believe what we do because of our own personel experiences so why cant we share what we have all learned.what we believe n why?
There r so many problems n this world and I just want to try n b part of some of the solutions.
And don't think negativity is the way to do it.
I want to build not tear down,to b positive,n all I do.My belief in Jesus helps me do that.Thats just my way.Not forceing anything on anybody.
And i'm not all christains just me.doing my best n thats all I can do. |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-11-21 13:09:19 | lol Wow Stan relax have a beer.Guess i'm not an anal christain.My husband buys his on Saturday.
To all Christains Judge not,means shut up. Hehe! U run more people away from God that way than u will ever bring to him.God gave us 2 ears n 1 mouth bcuz listening is twice as important as running our mouth all the time.
Sorry Stan for all the people who make Jesus us look bad by judgeing u.Thats not their job.And u should tell them. |
off topic a bit...
Posted by Logrus Mage on 2005-11-24 23:13:26 | Can we have some grammer and spelling please? Doesn't have to be perfect... but the difference in typing time between you and u is incredibly insignificant. I'm not being anal about this, its just hard to read some of this stuff. In a world where impressions are everything, typing like a 15 year old schoolgirl on aim makes you look much less intelligent. It doesn't hurt your argument, but it does hurt your image.
****************************************************
Back on topic:
Its true that American media tends to care more about Americans and Christianity. American's utter arrogance can be incredibly appaling at times. Religions also tend to make one arrogant. Religion has caused a great deal of terrible things. It can cause arrogance and a feeling of superiority. Religion, race, and money do play a big part in how much attention a piece of news gets. Its disgusting and should stop immidiatly.
The average American is, without knowing it, very arrogant (IMO based on what i've seen). And the average American is also Christian. Unfortunatly, the practice in America of paying an amazingly greater amount of attention to news that involves WASPs' will not be stopping anytime soon. Eventually, over time, America will, hopefully, stop moving ass-backwards and start moving towards a new and greater tomorrow. |
Logrus Mage
Posted by angelwings on 2005-11-25 00:12:41 | Actually I do think ur being anal.most people seem to b able to read my messages just fine.So mayhaps its ur intelligents n question here.All I know is personel attacks seem to b all u can resort to bcus u don't have the intelligents to speak about religion.So I have tried to b nice and respectful here,but don't mistake it as weakness.I am very strong mentally,n u seem to b lacking.
I know u hate christains I get that u made ur point but this is a public forum.And I will not b run off.So get off my back.I'm not like all the christains u seem to think u know.I'm trying to b a better person I mess up everyday.But, I try to do possitive things n help people n do the best I can to make a differance.I want my life to count for something good.
If u wants urs to count for being destructive and anal.And full of hate all the time,so b it But ur not fooling me, I know if ur this hateful.U can't b a happy person.
Sorry 4 u.So hope u can get someone to read this to u.Yes I can spell you.I just bore easy don't like typeing much,n I'm tired of u now.
But hey I'm supposed to b honest to. |
I do believe you skipped everything else I've ever said.....
Posted by Logrus Mage on 2005-11-27 23:08:02 | Excuse me... but it wasn't a personal attack in the slightest. It was a request... and not a very big one. If you took it that way, I am terribly sorry. I'm most definetly not full of hate. I'm doing the best I can to better the worl in which I live! In my opinion,religion itself is arrogant. When people speak of their religion, I believe they become arrogant. In no way was that statement an attack on you personaly, or an attack on all Christians. Once again, I'm very sorry if you took it that way, and admit I could have worded it better.
Also, you seem to have the idea that I hate christians. Very untrue. If you've read anything that I've wrote here, you'd understand that I don't hate Christians, just some of the things Chritianity causes some of the crazy ones to do. Most of my friends are either Jewish, Christian, or Buddhist. A few are very religous. I have no problems with them at all. I have no problems with faith in general. Just with faith interfering with government or inspiring fear and chaos.
Also, I can most definetly read what you write. I'm 15. Most of my friends type like you when I chat with them. I can deal. Like I said, it was just an innocent request. Granted, I probably could have worded it better, and I apologize. I didn't mean to seem like I was trying to force you to lose face.
As for me never being able to be a happy person... I'll have you know that I am accepting of my life and content with my day-to-day affairs, a now very rare quality among my age group.
Finally, how can you be tired of me? What else have I done to offend you but request that you type a little better? If you are simply tired of me because I oppose some of your views, then you are no better than an arrogant atheist who denies the possibility of the exsitence of God. I'd ask your age, but I don't want to offend you further. Even though my post wasn't a personal attack, and yours, blatently (spl?), is. |
On spelling and grammar...
Posted by lep on 2005-11-28 13:15:20 | I don't capitalize or use punctuation on IM when I'm talking to friends who have already formed their opinions of me. That said, I do use correct grammar, spelling, and punctuation to the best of my ability when writing to people I don't know.
I also dress nicely when I teach. Nice pants and a buttoned shirt make a difference. Why? Regardless of whether this should be the case, everyone's first impression of you is of how you look or sound, not what you say.
IM-speak inevitably gives people the distinct impression that you don't care enough to get the details right. If you don't mind, go on using it. Logrus was simply trying to point out to you that, to continue with my clothing analogy, you were wearing a lime-green-with-purple-polka-dots tank top, a yellow miniskirt, and some fuzzy blue slippers to our discussion, while the rest of us were wearing more normal clothing. Sure, it's a little rude to publicly point out to somebody that they don't have any fashion sense, but I think he was hoping you wouldn't take it too personally. |
Give Me A Break
Posted by a person on 2005-11-28 14:35:00 | | It seems that everyone is just looking 4 stuff 2 pick @ now. So What if someone uses U or you.2 or two,to,too etc. Surely everyone is able to understand what is being said. Maybe the person who uses theb shortcut on words has more to do than correct pronunciation UNLESS they are being graded! |
I can't believe I started a flame war over spelling.....
Posted by Logrus Mage on 2005-11-28 17:56:57 | | Look, it was an innocent comment. I wasn't attacking. May we please return to the subject at hand? Back on topic please! Discuss religion! |
Religion, the less touchy subject?
Posted by lep on 2005-11-28 18:49:09 | It's kind of sad, really, that religion is the less flame-like conversation. That said, flame wars are nasty, and angel doesn't seem inclined to change, so...
I think that, in the end, the issue of why Christians have a bad image in America and why Americans have a bad image abroad is really very much the same. For that matter, it's the same reason people dislike Microsoft.
Microsoft was once a small, stuggling company. As a small, struggling company it had some practices which might not really have been entirely reasonable (among them, buying up or viciously putting down competition) but which were forgiven, since it was a company with a number of interesting ideas and unusually good business sense. Above all, though, it was small and struggling.
Jump ahead to several years later. Microsoft was an enormous company which was extremely successful, and even though it still had some interesting ideas, it was intensely disliked. Why? It wasn't just a PR failure. It was that, even after it had obtained so much power that it could easily squash all its competition, it continued to use the same tactics it always had used before. Viciously clubbing the enemy companies to bankruptcy ceased to be a case of the bright new star rising, and became one of the Man keeping everybody down.
Even if those practices were still legal, they were wrong. The intense desire to assure one's continual well-being by annihilating everyone else is natural and usually forgiven unless those doing the annihilation have the power to do it do many people at once.
America is, by its own admission, the World's Only Superpower (though China, India, and the EU are doing their best to get into the ring). We have (sensibly or not) proclaimed ourselves to be the World's Policemen. When other countries see us acting in obvious selfishness to their detriment, backing it up always with the threat of American economic, political, or military power, it gets up a kind of righteous anger. It doesn't matter that their own countries do the same things, because their own countries can't do those things to the extent that we can. We are hated, not because we are powerful, but because we World Policemen use our badge for personal gain.
By the same token, Christians are at the top of America. It is not generally possible to hold high office in the United States without publicly affirming your faith in Jesus. What do they do with the power? They do what the other faiths try to do: impose their own standards on everyone else. The problem is that the Christians can actually do it. The people in power have the responsibility not to use that power in the ways that seem most natural, because down that road is abuse, corruption, and hatred. |
Logrus
Posted by angelwings on 2005-11-28 20:02:38 | I to am sorry, I had alot on my plate that day.
And I think the reason we all have problems is bcuz instead of comeing together to try n learn about each other,we come with attitudes.Like I did that day.And it wasn't so much her as other things that happened n my day b4 I read that.So instead of trying to understand each toher we do petty things like complain about things that don't matter.
There r so many things In this world that need to b fixed.And maybe we should start with just being kind to each other.I may not b doing everything right but i'm not doing it all wrong either.
And I want n need to learn others views.That what its going to take to make a differance wanting to know each other,and wanting to find a place n the middle we can come together.We r not that differant. |
Women in the Bible
Posted by Stan A on 2005-11-30 11:25:58 | I was in a book store today and I saw a magazine prominently displayed. I think it was Newsweek with a cover, "Women in the Bible". I didn't bother to look, but I can imagine that this was some fluffy-fied excision of creative exegesis of a few select women, completely out of context of the real significance women supposedly have according to Biblical law and history. Many so-called prominent women in the Bible don't even have names. They weren't worthy of having their own identity in print.
The increasing number of "fluff pieces" supposed "news magazines" are vomiting upon the public is really disgusting. If I were a woman, I'd have even more right to be completely horrified at how women are portrayed in the bible. For more info see this:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html |
| Posted by angelwings on 2005-11-30 18:32:20 | Most women r not treated very well now Stan.I think things would b better if women ran things.lol We couldnt do any worse than white men n power.We have always been like second rate citizens,animals,other races and elderly.People with no power will always b under those in power.Bible or not.
The strong devour the weak,always have always will.Sad but true.That why their are good people in the world we r supposed to make it better for those less fortunate.Once u have knowledge something needs doing u a responsible to do it not wait for others.But,we all wait for others to do it don't we? |
| Posted by Logrus Mage on 2005-11-30 20:42:06 | Yes, women were portrayed horribly in the bible. They are the original sin, Gods second go and screw up. This is a key reason that I'm not Christian (or religously Jewish for that matter). I am not a woman. And God knows I'm not a feminist in any way, pardon the pun. But I do believe that women are no worse, nor any better then men. What has been done to them is disgusting. They were portrayed as weak, stupid, or evil figures. Not always of course, but a majority of the time. Its the same thing that is being done to Jews and Arabs in America, and Koreans in Japan. One race (or gender) using another race (or gender) to further their own ideals. Christians brought down women because of the much more sacred (though still not equal) position in the Polytheist naturalist religion of the time. By using specific opposites, and keeping specific similarities (Christmas is a pagan holiday ect...) Christianity was able to thrive in the New Roman Empire (Byzantium) as well as Orthodox Russia.
Now, women arn't treated nearly as terribly in America. Though they still make slightly less money, an unfair and unbalanced occurence, they are not depicted as weak or evil. In fact, most of todays women in the media (not news...) are depicted as strong, independent, and just. How often do you see a truly twisted and evil supervillaness anymore? Especially if there is a male hero?
Some christians are always trying to help the bible. Filling potholes, or trying to soften its contradictory nature. Things like the news article mentioned above support this. One particular thing that sparks my interest is how the burial of Jesus has changed throughout the years. It was more than likley a quick burial, with no mourning women, a square, not round, stone to block the entrance of his grave, and he was most likely unceremoniously tossed into the tomb by the same roman soldiers who brought him to the crusifix (spl?). It later evolved into a massivly huge affair. Facts were added by later Gospels to try and support the resurection, the absolute corner stone of the Christian faith. |
NEEEEEERRRRRRRRDDDDDDD!!!!!!
Posted by BOB on 2005-12-05 08:38:09 | U R ALL NEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!. THANK YOU
I LIKE CAPS |
America & women in the bible
Posted by Nemo on 2005-12-08 09:18:37 | Hello folks,
Been away and have just read the latest, hence the two titles in the "Title".
As regards women in the bible, well there are two things really I would like to say 1) the portrayal of women in the bible is more to do with the the times in which it was written and should always be read and viewed with that in mind. 2) and this may seem to be a contradiction of the first point, the Christian religion, in common with most modern day religions, is a male dominated religion, and this is reflected, to a greater or lesser extent, in the attitudes of the people who follow it.
Before Christianity came to Europe we had a system of beliefs based on the female and women then had an equal, if not slightly elevated position in society. The ancient Celts, for example, had a society where women were traditionally in charge of domestic animals, the house, etc. This may not seem like much in a modern context but in effect she was in charge of running all the most important facets of life in those times. In short, she had the power.
On to the other Title, I have read some of the comments about America, and, well I felt I just had to comment..... Firstly, and while there is no one doubting that as regards military power, nuclear weapons, etc. held under the control of one government, the U.S. is, that somewhat redundant term, a superpower. I would like to point out a few things to you though, China may be becoming stronger, both economically and militarily, I doubt India would or could ever in the forseeable future get it together enough to challenge any title a people may wish to give their own country. The EU, despite the fact that it and the U.S. share the word "united" is primarily a union based on economics and, although there have been moves to bring the EU closer in terms of politics, this has not happened, (it was rejected) and will, again for the forseeable future, not happen. To the best of my knowledge the EU has never wanted to, tried to or indeed could become a "superpower" with or without a capital "S". I read the sentence "America is, by its own admission, the World's Only Superpower" with some amusement. Am I the only one to see the irony here? Should I go on to say that I, by my own admission, am the worlds only God." I could of course, but, leaving aside the obvious fact that I have never been a God, what utter nonsense to try to say I was by saying "by my own admission". I can and often will admit to many things but there are some things that, by their very definition, require, indeed depend upon by their very nature, outside acknowledgement.
May I also point out that the day is thankfully gone, when one country can unequivocally declare themselves to be better, stonger or morally superior to its neighbours, well at least and get away with it for long. We exist in a partnership of countries that depend on co-operation - should one of the partners become rogue, then, hopefully, the others exert their powers to reign them in.
On the subject of arrogance, and yes, I am talking of arrogance, by what right does the U.S. proclaim itself "the worlds policemen". Surely a policeman/woman is a representative of a system of law common or agreed across a country or countries put in place by the democratically elected members of that country or countries. I recall no such democratic process, nor elections and if the U.S. sees itself as the worlds policemen, whose law is it enforcing? Indeed I would go so far as saying that a country who puts in place representatives of its own law without a democratically elected process is not, by definition, policing but illegally enforcing it view point.
I would go further and say that a country that is prepared to do that irrespective of its neighbours wishes is very much in danger of losing its objectivity and would be in further danger of applying tactics to achieve its aims that are not in keeping with its own policies and stated objectives as a democratic nation.
Such a country would end up losing sight of itself and could end up doing the very things it is purporting to be trying to stamp out, like setting up illegal prisons, illegally kidnapping and transporting people to countries where torture is commonly used, detaining people indefinitely without trial and without basic human rights. Riding rough shod over people and organisations that object to their policies, indeed at the worst end of the scale, such a country could even end up fabricating evidence to support a war based on many things, none of which could be used to justify such a war.
Hang on a minute...... |
Women in the past were worth less?
Posted by Stan A on 2005-12-08 12:22:45 | So Nemo you're saying the outrageous characterization of women and their rights in society was a sign of the times? Ok, fair enough. In biblical times, women were regarded as property; so in the time of Jesus, if you killed a man, you'd be put to death, but if you killed a women, you'd have to pay a "fine" for damaging someone else's property.
Sign of the times? Ok, but how many hundreds of years does it take before people come to the conclusion that women deserve to at least be afforded the same level of respect and dignity as men? For get about rights - how about not being treated as property? And why would you hold in such esteem any group of people who apparently couldn't figure this out? Especially Jesus.
This is a classic example of how god and jesus is a myth. If they were so powerful, they wouldn't have to pander to societal conventions like they did as exhibited in the bible. Man may be weak, but god is supposed to be strong and with never-waiving conviction, but in the bible, this is not observable.
Yes, in many cultures, women still have a fraction of the rights of men. This isn't just a bible thing, but it always amuses me how there are so many women who know so little about their own religion. Christianity is a very female-unfriendly philosophy. Anyone who reads the bible who isn't deluding themselves would quickly be horrified at how god and his minions think so lowly of most women and their rights. |
Christian America (and women)
Posted by lep on 2005-12-08 21:25:29 | Before I talk about America, I want to bring up two small things about women in general. First, it's a mistake to say Europe was woman-centered before Christianity; pre-Christian Europe wasn't really Europe at all, but a large number of tribes, each with very different outlooks. Even the various peoples of what we now think of as single countries (e.g., Germany) rarely agreed on much of anything. Second, while I agree that women in the Bible are treated worse (and shamefully so) than men, men aren't really treated very well either. Sure, there are a couple of men who get six hundred wives, but most of them just suffer and die.
That aside, I agree with the general statement. I do think, though, that non-Christians often underappreciate the lack of knowledge people have about their own faith. Many Christians I know aren't really Christians at all, but deists who call their god Jesus. This is probably the reason for the entire mess of born-again Christians... lots of people find deism unsatisfying. It doesn't have much certainty to it, and sometimes (when done poorly, as is often the case if they haven't thought about it) feels rather fake and forced. Worse, it feels like a cop-out to many. The certainty of following somebody charismatic who says he brings the word of God can be hard to resist, especially when he throws in the magic word (Jesus), which has been imprinted since birth even on the semi-deists. |
Deism
Posted by Stan A on 2005-12-09 03:25:35 | As far as religious philosophies go, Deism is certainly a lot more paletable you have to admit. Some abstract "god" that doesn't need a bunch of dogmatic pomp surrounding it is better than what seems to be the norm for tv-sanctioned christianity these days.
The problem I have with deists is that they allow the radical factions to become more powerful. A good analogy are the gun people. Most people would agree people should have the right to bear arms, but the majority of gun owners would also agree that some types of weapons probably should not be as easily available. If you live in the inner city, a machine gun shouldn't be something you can get quickly. But you wouldn't know that the gun-lobby is more level headed when you see that their spokespeople are raving lunatics who think everyone should be armed to the teeth and able to shoot someone for looking at them wrong.
The people in the middle need to stand up. Deists should not tolerate crazy fundies claiming they speak for all who believe in god. But instead they just whisper to themselves, "Well, I'm not like those people." and let them continue with their radical, dangerous polarization of society.
It is for this reason that I have become anti-religious. Because there is no moderate voice or presence to say, "Hey, I believe in god, and this dumbass Pat Robertson or Creflo Dollar doesn't speak for me!" So since you all can't contain your nutty, freaky, perverted uncles, I think the whole family should take responsibility and just disband, give up on calling yourselves Xtians and admit it's all a failure. |
Dr
Posted by Bottomless Pitt on 2005-12-14 06:04:17 | | Wot is this? this is freaky! it should be banned! lol |
| Posted by Brain Pitt on 2005-12-14 23:52:44 | | Aye, anything you disagree with should be banned. This way the world doesn't get so large that your tiny mind feels overwhelmed. Why didn't I think of that? |
new Lounge topic?
Posted by Pile on 2005-12-21 01:12:21 | | This has been a good discussion. anyone here ready for a new topic? Any recommendations? |
New Topic Suggestion
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-12-29 20:35:20 | | How about the death penalty? Is there any crime that deserves the death penalty? OR.... How about punishment at school? How far should school officials/staff/bus drivers go with punishment for bad behavior? |
On the new topic
Posted by wizeGurl on 2005-12-31 00:18:57 | Definitely, if we do have the death penalty, it should be used as punishment for bad behavior at school. Think how quiet and attentive the students would be!
Sorry, couldn't resist. |
| Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-12-31 12:29:50 | No doubt!... LOL...I don't think there would be any more bad behavior.
On a serious note though, there would probably be students (there already have been) that take the death penalty into their own hands at school.
Surely everyone reading this knows that the two topic suggestions are not meant to be combined....just had to add that in case there are sickos out there who think that! And I know you wern't serious wizegurl. |
Hey...that could be a new topic
Posted by DibbleDabble on 2005-12-31 12:33:50 | | Another new topic suggestion....lets talk about these kids at school that go off the deep end and start killing classmates,teachers and anybody else that gets in the way. |
lmfao
Posted by that only happens in america on 2006-02-02 20:11:00 | | i've only hered about that happening in america but most of it's just shit like tv producers every show at the moment is f!@#ing shit especialy lost, |
ONLY IN AMERICA
Posted by interesting on 2006-02-14 18:08:28 | WOW! I have read some of the things on the earlier postings and WOW people could really go into a debating proffesion.
Some of you even have statictics.
Nonetheless. I agree with DibbleDabble on his view very much. Because I am a Christian and believe in the Lord God and my savior Jesus Christ.
I also believe in the Devil and heaven and HEll and i would like to have a talk with Stan A. really interesting
But anyways.
ALot of things that happen in America dont happen anywhere else in the world and i would like to talk with some people about it. |
| Posted by Stan A on 2006-02-14 18:17:24 | | What? You think you can convert me? |
| Posted by DibbleDabble on 2006-02-15 17:32:22 | | Thanks interesting. I will keep posted to see what takes place with you and Stan. |
| Posted by interesting on 2006-02-19 14:13:02 | | No Stan i don't think i can convert you. Honestly. because of your belifs but i do think i can get u to understand something that you are confused about or that you are wrong about. |
| Posted by Stan A on 2006-02-19 16:13:03 | | And what's that? That beJebus loves me? |
| Posted by ANONYMOUS on 2006-02-21 21:43:42 | | STANS REPLY SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING "INTERESTING". HE IS AN IMATURE SMART A**. |
| Posted by Stan A on 2006-02-25 10:13:51 | Because I don't believe in the jesus fairy tale I'm immature?
I can recognize that even if I don't believe in the boatload of goofy christian dogma, I should at least show respect for less intelligent people who do and not belittle the object of their fantasies. I understand that, and normally I'd completely agree. You are free to believe what you want to believe and who am I to burst your bubble or make fun of it?
The problem is, the fundamentalists have taken over the country, engaged us in an unprovoked war, spent tons of my taxpayer dollars irresponsibly, created a government-subsidized "faith-based" corporate welfare system for churches, installed federal and supreme court judges who have religious agendas, and have destroyed the sacred separation of church and state. There is a reason why there is separation of church and state, and when it no longer becomes separate, those who don't want the state promoting a particular stupid fantasy have to speak up.
So the time has come for atheists, agnostics, humanists, and other people who truly do have respect for separation of church and state, to go on the offensive and call attention to the childish christian god fantasy in order to keep the government from turning into some middle eastern country where half the laws are based on some stupid thousand-year-old book written by a bunch of weirdos that never thought anyone would believe their fairy tales in the first place. |
Come rain Come sun
Posted by Magnus Duru on 2006-03-04 07:47:03 | No matter how you look at it Jeus christ is the only true way to God
Look at his teachings teaching about his name LOVE/
I strongly Belive that muslim is what the Devil fashioned to fool children of the bond woman to distroytion( can you help God ? I ask you muslim fools if Mohammed is not a terrorist then why are you fools fighting over carton )
come rain come sun Jesus Christ is Lord |
Case Study In Why There Is No God
Posted by Stan A on 2006-03-04 10:05:05 | Magnus, you illustrate my point exactly. "Jesus is the only true way to god" and then you call muslims evil.
You stupid, hair-brained religious nutballs can't even get along with other religious nutballs, most of whom, have beliefs that are only slightly different than your own. There are many more similarities between Islam and Christianity than not, yet your "religion of peace" is really a religion of hatred, and all you can do is pass judgement on others... oh and what does your sacred bible say about this activity?
Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
So what exactly do you believe Magnus? Because you're not following the Bible.
If there really was a god, EVEN if he remotely resembled what the christians, muslims and other religions claimed, and he returned to earth, I'm fairly confident his first order of business would be to smite people like you, who don't really have any consistency of behavior in accordance with his so-called doctrine. Merely saying "Jesus is lord" and then acting like a total hypocrite probably wouldn't cut it in god's book.
See you in hell Magnus. Actually, you'll be in hell, but I won't. And even if there actually was a "heaven"... if it was filled with nothing but self-righteous, jugemental haters such as yourself, the irony is that it would be hell. Along those lines, maybe there is a cosmic purpose and the joke will be on you. |
| Posted by Anonymous on 2006-03-04 21:26:31 | | Muslims worship a god called ala, Stan, why are you are so full of hate? |
| Posted by Stan A on 2006-03-06 20:43:46 | Allah, god, jesus, anal warts, jessica simpson, whatever.
I'm not full of "hate." I'm full of intolerance for stupid people who think they know who the creator is, and expect everyone else to subscribe to their delusional fairy tales. You're familiar with intolerance aren't you? You religious people f*cking invented it!
You can believe in Pilsbury the dough boy as your messiah. That's fine, until you start launching a campaign to pass laws outlawing biscuit eating as some sort of immoral activity. If this analogy escapes you, consider putting down the crack pipe and reading up on philosophy, science and history.
The bottom line is that god is a farce. Weak-minded people need god. I know you don't want to hear that, but that's the truth. You know it. This is why you need to surround yourselve with 'believers' because you can't handle being around skeptics. This is why you think I "hate" this-and-that. It's the only way your feeble mind can deal with the fact that someone who appears articulate and intelligent can possibly not believe in your fairy tale. I must be a mean, hateful person. Unfortunately, that's not true. But that's what you need to believe in order to prop up your fantasy. Sorry, but the emperor has no clothes dude. He's still naked whether I say so or not, and you're still naive. |
Stan,
Posted by Anonymous on 2006-03-07 13:52:10 | | The difference between you and everyone else that has posted on this subject is that your words are "matter of factly" and everyone else's are opinions. You seem very immature and full of resentful hate for anyone elses beliefs.How old are you anyway? Evedently you need to grow up and learn how to be mature enough to debate without all your sarcasim. I wold hate to see you hold any kind of office.How many jobs have you been able to hold down with your attitude towards people and their beliefs? |
| Posted by Stan A on 2006-03-07 18:26:12 | Suffice to say, it's my opinion. That should be a given.
I think you're intimidated by the level of self-confidence that I eminate when I make these statements. It says more about your insecurity than it does my arrogance. Then again, that's just my opinion. Yours obviously does vary.
Don't accuse me of being judgemental and hateful when you do the same thing, by implying that I can't be a productive member of society because what? I'm not being very diplomatic about my opinions in this here forum? Do you think that my writing here is some indication of who I am in a broader sense and my ability to be gainfully employed? The truth is I'm very successful, not that I have anything to prove to you or anybody else. The truth is I've never been fired from any job ever, and I've held down many jobs, and I have one right now that I do very well at. I typically keep my religious views to myself because I don't have a job where I have to deal with people flaunting their spirtuality in my face thank goodness. But even if I did, I am mature enough to know when to discuss these issues and when not to. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the point though.
It's funny how Xtians are so full of self-righteousness about their own beliefs and the way the world works. You're certain there is a god and jesus and all that. You are certain that heathens like myself who aren't "saved" are going to "burn in hell" and all that malarky. That's pretty arrogant in my opinion. And you get upset when I disagree with you and display a comparable amount of self-assurance in my opinion? I think you find it hard to believe that someone can actually feel so confident in the non-existence of invisible pink unicorns, but it is true, you can, and you can actually be less mean-spirited and hateful when you shed all the religious dogma that crowds your brain and teaches you to pass judgement upon others because of superstitious mythology. Try it! You may like it! I'm sure jesus wouldn't care one way or another anyway. |
Invisible Pink Unicorns
Posted by einhorn on 2006-03-10 00:38:58 | ...are the true and only god! I can't believe that you don't see the obvious truth in this, Stan. Without following the teachings of the invisible pink unicorns, you and all the others with incorrect beliefs will surely burn in Hell, which we believe is populated by two-horned horses who eternally poke you in the ass-cheeks. Ouch! That will sting, you know. And we true believers will live on pink, fluffy clouds with our unicorn deities, eating marshmallow fluff and singing "100 Bottles of Beer on the Wall" with a most harmonious and beautiful sound.
Y'know, it's sad that so many people will not be able to join us in bliss there, because they shun the Way of the IPU. You know that invisible pink unicorns love you, Stan. And they love even those who worship false gods like "Jesus" and "Allah." Oh, and they hate people who put those plastic covers on their couches. That is the one unforgiveable sin in their eyes. Repent, ye plastic-couched devils! Accept the one true way of the invisible pink unicorns. It makes at least as much sense as the other choices. |
Re: IPU
Posted by lep on 2006-03-27 13:03:23 | And the Invisible Pink Unicorns did say to him who was Their Mouthpiece to the world: go forth, and rule over this Earth that we have given to you and only you believers. Follow Our teachings, especially those about plastic covers on couches, and make war on those who do not follow Our Word. For Our Word is all and eternal, and suffering in Hell for all Eternity is insufficient punishment for their unbelief. So should each true believer stab at least three unbelievers during his lifetime with a Holy Horn, or nine who claim to be believers but do not follow the true Path.
And he who was Their Mouthpiece trembled and obeyed. For Their Word is all and eternal. |
Cool
Posted by Werewere on 2007-08-17 16:59:23 | Jesus= cool
Allah= God
Muhammad= prophet= cool
Gay= O.K.
Modern christians= uptight
The only religion with out extremists is Buddhism |
I messed up...
Posted by God on 2007-08-17 17:13:04 | I was soooooo drunk when i made earth
vowed not to drink again and then there is a haze for about 7000 years...
lets see the news.....
HOLY CRAP!
I GOT A GIRL PREGNANT!
AND I MADE LIKE A BAJILLION RELIGIONS!
Alright calm down
calm...
down...
Alright then lets flip a coin;
heads i blow it to shit
tails i fix it
center side i watch and laugh
maybe have a drink or two... |
| Posted by nativenative on 2008-09-13 05:47:00 | What fun! Thought provoking posts and responces by everyone.
Into the mix - does it give anyone pause to consider that the two largest and most dangerous religions, comprising between themselves the majority of persons alive on the planet, are both Bible based? |
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